Author Topic: UK General Election 2017  (Read 114052 times)

Robbie

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #675 on: May 28, 2017, 02:05:36 PM »
Rich people pay a lot of tax! I've no objection to anyone keeping what they have earned or own. I AM NOT RICH but amnot resentful of the rich & if I suddenly found myself to be rich I'd be happy to pay tax up to a point, as do now, but would fiercely protect any excess! So would most of us. Especially when we know the government doesn't spend taxes as we would like.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #676 on: May 28, 2017, 06:50:30 PM »
I thought the social care policy was a very progressive system but now will favour the richest keeping their wealth.
I don't think it was progressive, because a progressive tax and welfare system takes account not just the ability to pay tax but the need for support. The whole notion of a progressive tax and welfare system is that we all pay for the costs of welfare via the taxation system according to out ability to pay (i.e. wealth), but we receive benefit on the basis of need, regardless of our wealth.

The proposed system didn't do that as whether or not you retained your wealth was based on the lottery of need of social care, rather than purely on wealth. So if you are unlucky enough to have significant need due to dementia you lose all your wealth - if you are lucky enough not to need the care, you retain your wealth.

Equate that to medical need - effectively what the proposals were suggesting was the equivalent of being diagnosed with cancer and being told that because you are wealthy, you'll have to pay for all your medical need until most of your wealth has gone, then and only then would you get it for free on the NHS. I sure we'd all be horrified at that notion, but that's what was being proposed (and actually is the case already).

We do need a debate about social care, but I didn't think the proposals were the right answer. I think we need to accept the basic principles of a progressive tax and welfare system and therefore accept that we all pay in according to our wealth (regardless of whether or not we will need the social care), in other words we are all sharing the risk. And then ensure that the social care is provided on the basis of need.

And the best way to raise the additional money needed would be on a significant increase in inheritance tax, which is currently way too low. For many people who inherit they can get a un-earned windfall of up to £650k completely tax free. How much tax would you pay on that income if you actually earned it - probably about £150k.

jakswan

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #677 on: May 28, 2017, 08:36:04 PM »
I don't think it was progressive, because a progressive tax and welfare system takes account not just the ability to pay tax but the need for support. The whole notion of a progressive tax and welfare system is that we all pay for the costs of welfare via the taxation system according to out ability to pay (i.e. wealth), but we receive benefit on the basis of need, regardless of our wealth.

Found a definition of progressive tax (Google)
A progressive tax is a tax in which the tax rate increases as the taxable amount increases. The term "progressive" refers to the way the tax rate progresses from low to high, with the result that a taxpayer's average tax rate is less than the person's marginal tax rate.

I don't think it is a progressive tax but progressive system.

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The proposed system didn't do that as whether or not you retained your wealth was based on the lottery of need of social care, rather than purely on wealth. So if you are unlucky enough to have significant need due to dementia you lose all your wealth - if you are lucky enough not to need the care, you retain your wealth.

I thought it was an improvement for many people, not fully thought out though and clearly put into the manifesto off the back of a fag packet.

Quote
Equate that to medical need - effectively what the proposals were suggesting was the equivalent of being diagnosed with cancer and being told that because you are wealthy, you'll have to pay for all your medical need until most of your wealth has gone, then and only then would you get it for free on the NHS. I sure we'd all be horrified at that notion, but that's what was being proposed (and actually is the case already).

Don't disagree.

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We do need a debate about social care, but I didn't think the proposals were the right answer. I think we need to accept the basic principles of a progressive tax and welfare system and therefore accept that we all pay in according to our wealth (regardless of whether or not we will need the social care), in other words we are all sharing the risk. And then ensure that the social care is provided on the basis of need.

LibDems 1p on tax?

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And the best way to raise the additional money needed would be on a significant increase in inheritance tax, which is currently way too low. For many people who inherit they can get a un-earned windfall of up to £650k completely tax free. How much tax would you pay on that income if you actually earned it - probably about £150k.

Again would agree, Labour dropped it though.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/inheritance-tax-left-out-of-labour-manifesto-2017-amid-worries-among-london-mps_uk_59157f27e4b0031e737cc4a9

Sounds like it would be even more unpopular.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #678 on: May 28, 2017, 08:45:56 PM »
Rich people pay a lot of tax! I've no objection to anyone keeping what they have earned or own. I AM NOT RICH but amnot resentful of the rich & if I suddenly found myself to be rich I'd be happy to pay tax up to a point, as do now, but would fiercely protect any excess! So would most of us. Especially when we know the government doesn't spend taxes as we would like.

Except the rich have ways of hiding their wealth. Really trust me on this.
The people who look like being squeezed are the already squeezed middle - and I think they are perhaps just waking up to the fact that they are being played and have been for many a long year.

Incidentally I have a real problem when people say that rich people have earned their money. How exactly. They've been paid it yes, but earned it, how?

How do footballers earn the sums they earn, or some pop musicians or indeed husbands of PM's. We have to really define what we mean when we use the term earn. Because sometimes it looks much more akin to extortion than to anything as honest as 'earning'.
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Ricky Spanish

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #679 on: May 28, 2017, 09:55:55 PM »
Love this thread - shows up members as they really are...
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Robbie

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #680 on: May 29, 2017, 12:38:16 AM »
Except the rich have ways of hiding their wealth. Really trust me on this.
The people who look like being squeezed are the already squeezed middle - and I think they are perhaps just waking up to the fact that they are being played and have been for many a long year.

Incidentally I have a real problem when people say that rich people have earned their money. How exactly. They've been paid it yes, but earned it, how?

How do footballers earn the sums they earn, or some pop musicians or indeed husbands of PM's. We have to really define what we mean when we use the term earn. Because sometimes it looks much more akin to extortion than to anything as honest as 'earning'.

I was thinking of people in business, heads of corporations, who have great responsibility rather than footballers and the like, though I wouldn't say footballers don't 'earn', they arguably earn too much but that's a different issue.

Husbands of PMs?  There have only been two so far, Dennis Thatcher and Theresa May's husband. I know nothing about Mr May but Dennis Thatcher was a successful businessman long before his wife became prime minister.  There have been plenty of PMs' wives! Cherie Blair and Samantha Cameron had their own careers.

I accept that people hide money from the tax man wherever possible which isn't an option for those of us who are salaried and pay as we go. Imagine I inherited a thriving portfolio, I wouldn't have earned it but it would be rightfully mine. I'd employ a firm of accountants to find the best way to save me money.  (That's not going to happen by the way  :D, I'll carry on working quite contentedly until I retire. It's a nice thought though.)
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Sriram

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #681 on: May 29, 2017, 05:46:11 AM »




Some people say Theresa May has lost some support since after the bomb blast. Is this true do you think?

Gordon

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #682 on: May 29, 2017, 06:34:29 AM »



Some people say Theresa May has lost some support since after the bomb blast. Is this true do you think?

Hopefully it is true.

Robbie

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #683 on: May 29, 2017, 09:07:08 AM »
We can live in hope but I don't see how the Manchester bombing will affect Theresa May's popularity. Whether people like her or not they can't blame her for that act of terrorism, it would have happened whoever was PM.

(Btw I looked up Theresa May's husband, Philip, he has a well established career in finance& is independently wealthy so needs no support from her in his role as husband of the Prime Minister.)
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Aruntraveller

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #684 on: May 29, 2017, 09:15:43 AM »
We can live in hope but I don't see how the Manchester bombing will affect Theresa May's popularity. Whether people like her or not they can't blame her for that act of terrorism, it would have happened whoever was PM.

(Btw I looked up Theresa May's husband, Philip, he has a well established career in finance& is independently wealthy so needs no support from her in his role as husband of the Prime Minister.)

Yes my point is the company he works for specialises in equity release. Join the dots.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #685 on: May 29, 2017, 09:41:10 AM »
We can live in hope but I don't see how the Manchester bombing will affect Theresa May's popularity. Whether people like her or not they can't blame her for that act of terrorism, it would have happened whoever was PM.
I think that is being somewhat simplistic.

The security services clearly missed the bomber - they were warned on at least 3 separate occasions by members of his community about him 5 years ago and again a year ago. Yet it would appear that little was done to monitor him, certainly not enough to prevent successfully developing and using a bomb.

MI5 have recognised that there were failures and have announced a review of their procedures. The operation of MI5 is ultimately the responsibility of the Home Secretary, and eventually the PM. And guess what, one person has been in one or other of those role through the entire period where there were failures to act on warnings received from the public - that person is one T May.

The public aren't stupid - they recognise that just about the primary responsibility of government is to keep them safe and they failed to do so in this case. And this is different to some previous cases where the perpetrator was a 'lone wolf' type, under the radar and not noticed by him community as a thread, and therefore security services were never warned and aware.

Udayana

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #686 on: May 29, 2017, 10:16:00 AM »
The polls do show that the gap has closed a bit since the bombing and when the Conservative core demographic realized they were going to have to pay for their own care:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39856354

Corbyn was right to include foreign policy and police cuts as factors in terrorism, but I doubt that will be enough to convince the electorate that they would be any safer under Labour. it would help to stop continuing to put up Diane Abbot against Rudd who, right or wrong, at least succeeds in engaging her brain when asked a question.

« Last Edit: May 29, 2017, 10:38:42 AM by Udayana »
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Robbie

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #687 on: May 29, 2017, 10:20:29 AM »
I take your point Prof but I doubt Mrs May's popularity will wane particuarly for that reason, there will be plenty of other reasons.

Just seen Udayna's post, seems her pop has gone down since the bombing after all, plus the care business which angers me so much.

Trentvoyager I didn\t know Philip May was involved in equity release, not that I think equity release is wrong as long as those going into it are careful about the small print& know exactly what they're doing. I read that his personal expertise is in Pension funds. Whatever, he certainly won't be needing subs from his wife!
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jakswan

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #688 on: May 29, 2017, 10:50:54 AM »
I think that is being somewhat simplistic.

The security services clearly missed the bomber - they were warned on at least 3 separate occasions by members of his community about him 5 years ago and again a year ago. Yet it would appear that little was done to monitor him, certainly not enough to prevent successfully developing and using a bomb.

MI5 have recognised that there were failures and have announced a review of their procedures. The operation of MI5 is ultimately the responsibility of the Home Secretary, and eventually the PM. And guess what, one person has been in one or other of those role through the entire period where there were failures to act on warnings received from the public - that person is one T May.

The public aren't stupid - they recognise that just about the primary responsibility of government is to keep them safe and they failed to do so in this case. And this is different to some previous cases where the perpetrator was a 'lone wolf' type, under the radar and not noticed by him community as a thread, and therefore security services were never warned and aware.

I think most of the public will be laying the blame for Manchester solely on the terrorist. Its the responsibility of the government to fund MI5 and Parliament to pass legalisation to keep us all safe.

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Nearly Sane

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #689 on: May 29, 2017, 12:13:30 PM »



Some people say Theresa May has lost some support since after the bomb blast. Is this true do you think?

As has been noted by others, it's difficult to separate out what has caused any changes in popularity from the issues over the Tory manifesto and May's bad performance in campaigning but your question triggers a number of thoughts.

First of all, the real question is about Tory popularity. While there was an attempt to make this some form of Presidential election by the Tories to start with, it isn't though some such as jakswan and gonnagle on here seem confused enough to think it is. It would be an incorrect but at least arguable notion with some form of proportional electoral system but under FPTP, it's simply wrong.


Next, any change in popularity from the opinion polls was mainly between weekly polls where the factor of the farce over the social care policy was not reflected till this week. Added to that that there was a trend  for the polls to be narrowing and it is difficult to understand the impact of the murders in Manchester. That said, the expectation was that the murders would be beneficial for the Tories in that security issues are in general better for the incumbent as there is a preference for a 'strong and stable' continuity and also, in general, the Tories have managed to portray themselves as the law and order party. The immediate raising and now lowering of the terror thread level, and the the apparent information that the murderer had been reported several times by people, though may not have been seen as an indication of competence that is needed. One of the issues here for May specifically is that having been Home Secretary for the years before she became PM, any failings will be seen as her responsibility.


The choice to run this as a vote for May rather than a vote for the Tories, to the extent that the battle bus referred to May, and various candidates put out leaflets with no pictures of themselves just May, and referred to themselves as May's candidate, was apart from being constitutionally illiterate, a mistake IMO for a number of reasons. First it is a high risk policy since it takes only a few mistakes to dissolve that idea of confidence, secondly it was started from a high water mark so could to an extent only go down, third that high water mark was not evidenced by much actual campaigning. May had practically avoided campaigning in Brexit and there was no indication that she was a barnstorming politician on the campaign trail. Indeed the coddling and hiding her from actual appearances with real people from the start of the campaign indicates that this was known and that somehow they (Lynton Crosby) has decided to play to a weakness.

The weakness was compounded by making the election, called for purely party political reasons and a waste of time and money, by someone who had said they weren't going to do so, immediately making then a liar, and in the justifications given for the waste, a lying hypocrite. The need to keep it a surprise to somehow put the opposition onto the back foot meant that there was no real plan for the election and lead to not enough voices being involved in the manifesto leading to the farce that was the social care policy. I am sure it sounded like a good idea in that it could be portrayed as being something that might appeal to Labour voters but it's disjunct from health care policy which meant that it could be called a dementia tax (and whoever came up with that phrase deserves a nod) was indicative of policy on the hoof. When you are trying to run as strong and stable, there is little you can do worse than this sort of ill thought out policy, particularly when you havene actually got the agreement of your own cabinet, nevermind the party on this.


Further evidence of this lack of thinking and planning comes from the calling of the election, already being done for purely party reasons and on the basis of a lie, with the aim to get a large majority, on what I think were three hopes which were only going to work under a perfect wind. These three hopes were reducing UKIP to an irrelevance by getting the vast majority of votes to go Tory, what could be portrayed as a 'successful resurgence' in Scotland thus reducing the possibility of independence and scrutiny by the SNP in Westminster, and reducing the Labour Party to a rump.

Now looking at these individually, they were all perfectly achievable but there is a bit of the fox, chicken and corn logic problem when you look at them in more detail, something that due to the lack of planning and groupthink they didn't do.

First, making the UKIP vote smaller, and getting the votes must have seemed like a no brained. They simply had to say Brexit means Brexit, moan a bit about Juncker and say Corbyn was weak. This though is where the joke of the social care policy is on them. The UKIP vote is demographically older and fed on a diet of Daily Mail dementia and cancer stories. This then pushes some votes of UKIP to the Labour party thereby negating the third aim.

The second plank also seems incredibly easy in that it would effectively been achieved if the SNP got less than the 56 seats they gained in a set of almost unrepeatable circumstances and the stories got 1 more seat doubling their sears to a whole 2 in Scotland. Thus for Ruth and the Plastic PopulationThe Only Way Wiz Up! Again this is in that aim likely to be achieved but it also needed the vast majority of the elderly once Labour vote. Having managed to screw this up, my feeling is that they have taken the Scottish Labour Party which was on life support and about to become a moribund corpse, restarted its heart and given it the kiss of life.


This leads to the third aim , and where they made a mistake in changing the logic which was of benefit in the first two parts completely around. UKIP and the SNP were both starting from their own high water mark positions so in effect, any advance was hugely unlikely for them. For Labour and Corbyn though the opposite was true, and as already covered May's own popularity, something that they obviously knew was problematic, the only way was down. Any neutral watching PMQs would, I think, agree that neither May nor Corbyn are adept at it but most people aren't watching it and putting up May vs Corbyn as a general election bout was only likely to make Corbyn look good because the Tories had lowered expectations so far that he could only exceed them. In addition, Corbyn had won two elections to be leader of the Labour Party by large majorities, while May had got the Tory leadership by winning only amongst the MPs after a number of candidates had shot one and other. Mistakenly, they thought he had won those only by those voting having drunk the kool aid.

There is still a week and a half to go and we have to see what the vote actually is but if the Tories do not get a large majority on the wasteful election they called, by making their leader a liar, then their hypocritical hubris will be to blame
« Last Edit: May 29, 2017, 12:53:39 PM by Nearly Sane »

jakswan

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #690 on: May 29, 2017, 01:16:10 PM »
A well thought out post, few issues though.

First of all, the real question is about Tory popularity. While there was an attempt to make this some form of Presidential election by the Tories to start with, it isn't though some such as jakswan and gonnagle on here seem confused enough to think it is. It would be an incorrect but at least arguable notion with some form of proportional electoral system but under FPTP, it's simply wrong.

On what basis you vote is up to the voter. I might not like Corbyn but think actually on balance more Labour MPs might be a good result for the country, you love Corbyn and base your vote on that basis.

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Further evidence of this lack of thinking and planning comes from the calling of the election, already being done for purely party reasons and on the basis of a lie,

Disagree could see the Lords blocking progress of Brexit now won't be able to due to the fact it is in Manifesto.

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reducing the Labour Party to a rump.

No I don't think so, they might have changed their mind but the Tories were delighted with Corbyn as they saw him as an easy target. If Labour get very low seats then Corbyn has to go, he has run a great campaign so far and will now likely stay.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #691 on: May 29, 2017, 01:43:24 PM »
A well thought out post, few issues though.

On what basis you vote is up to the voter. I might not like Corbyn but think actually on balance more Labour MPs might be a good result for the country, you love Corbyn and base your vote on that basis.

Absolutely people can vote for whatever reason they like, however sensible or stupid their reasons might be. However, I wasn't commenting on your reasons rather the facts of FPTP. The effect of your vote depends on what the situation is in your constituency. Let's say that someone wants Corbyn to PM because they like him but they are in a constituency that is is going to be between the Lib Dems and the Tories, then voting Labour is not a vote for Corbyn as PM.

BTW were you using 'you' in 'you love Corbyn'  in the sense of a generic you/one? If not you, in the non generic sense, would be wrong.

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Disagree could see the Lords blocking progress of Brexit now won't be able to due to the fact it is in Manifesto.

Possibly though that would be easily remedied and they hadn't lost a vote. It also doesn't stop it being on the basis of a lie, I.e. that of May saying she wouldn't. Though that lie may have occurred due to the possible threat of having to hold by elections because of electoral spending fraud. 


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No I don't think so, they might have changed their mind but the Tories were delighted with Corbyn as they saw him as an easy target. If Labour get very low seats then Corbyn has to go, he has run a great campaign so far and will now likely stay.

Except that makes no logical sense. If you think Corbyn is awful, and you have a twenty point lead in the polls, you are calling an election, you aren't thinking that the Labour Party are going to do OK.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2017, 01:47:33 PM by Nearly Sane »

jakswan

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #692 on: May 29, 2017, 04:28:23 PM »
Will reply in more detail later but on the vote issue...

Votes can be used for many things. How much air time you get on the media, in debates, if you stay on as leader, etc.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #693 on: May 29, 2017, 04:32:50 PM »
Will reply in more detail later but on the vote issue...

Votes can be used for many things. How much air time you get on the media, in debates, if you stay on as leader, etc.

Sorry, this reads as a non sequitur as it reads as if your single vote determines these things which it obviously doesn't.

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #694 on: May 29, 2017, 05:48:27 PM »
Sorry, this reads as a non sequitur as it reads as if your single vote determines these things which it obviously doesn't.

No single vote determines anything, it counts for many things not just electing one MP.
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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #695 on: May 29, 2017, 05:53:46 PM »
Possibly though that would be easily remedied and they hadn't lost a vote. It also doesn't stop it being on the basis of a lie, I.e. that of May saying she wouldn't. Though that lie may have occurred due to the possible threat of having to hold by elections because of electoral spending fraud. 

So when Sturgeon said 'one in a generation' she was lying, blumin heck I said I didn't want a coffee to the missus earlier then changed my mind, I was lying?

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Except that makes no logical sense. If you think Corbyn is awful, and you have a twenty point lead in the polls, you are calling an election, you aren't thinking that the Labour Party are going to do OK.

The Tories thought Corbyn was awful and had a vested interest in him staying on, given the way he has performed I have no doubt they no longer think that.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #696 on: May 29, 2017, 05:58:34 PM »
So when Sturgeon said 'one in a generation' she was lying, blumin heck I said I didn't want a coffee to the missus earlier then changed my mind, I was lying?

What has anything that  Sturgeon,  Trump or King Dial the best dressed man in Barbados got to do with May's lie?
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The Tories thought Corbyn was awful and had a vested interest in him staying on, given the way he has performed I have no doubt they no longer think that.

Again you aren't making any logical sense here. If the Tories thought Corbyn was awful and they had a twenty point lead, they have to expect that Labour would be reduced to a rump and that they would win in a landslide.

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #697 on: May 29, 2017, 06:00:17 PM »
No single vote determines anything, it counts for many things not just electing one MP.

In the same sense as a butterfly's wing wave contributes to a hurricane. In a FPTP election, your voting for the PM in most constituencies is a factual error.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2017, 06:02:54 PM by Nearly Sane »

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #698 on: May 29, 2017, 06:35:10 PM »
I think that is being somewhat simplistic.

The security services clearly missed the bomber - they were warned on at least 3 separate occasions by members of his community about him 5 years ago and again a year ago. Yet it would appear that little was done to monitor him, certainly not enough to prevent successfully developing and using a bomb.

MI5 have recognised that there were failures and have announced a review of their procedures. The operation of MI5 is ultimately the responsibility of the Home Secretary, and eventually the PM. And guess what, one person has been in one or other of those role through the entire period where there were failures to act on warnings received from the public - that person is one T May.

The public aren't stupid - they recognise that just about the primary responsibility of government is to keep them safe and they failed to do so in this case. And this is different to some previous cases where the perpetrator was a 'lone wolf' type, under the radar and not noticed by him community as a thread, and therefore security services were never warned and aware.
Since 7/7 there have been three successful terrorist attacks which, to me suggests that the security services have been pretty successful. There's no such thing as perfect protection from terrorism - suicide bombers in particular - you have to accept that occasionally you will fail. Then you must learn from your mistakes and start again. What you shouldn't do is go round claiming our security services are not fit for purpose. That kind of panic is useless and even counter productive.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #699 on: May 29, 2017, 06:42:32 PM »
I think most of the public will be laying the blame for Manchester solely on the terrorist.
I think you are being overly simplistic and I think most of the public recognise this to be more complex than you imply.

Without doubt the terrorist and his network bear complete responsibility for carrying out the bombing. But it is the job of the security services and police to prevent crime and keep the public safe. So it is not unreasonable to see the terrorist as responsible for the act, but also to hold the security services responsible for failures which would otherwise have meant they could have prevented the bombing.

Its the responsibility of the government to fund MI5 and Parliament to pass legalisation to keep us all safe.
So you are accepting that there is a role (and therefore a responsibility) of MI5 to prevent crime of this sort. In which case you seem to be agreeing with my point above. And if there have been failures on the part of the security services (and I think most people accept there have, as the bomber was known to the security services) then it is perfectly reasonable to ask questions (which is being done as there is a review announced). And that review shouldn't focus solely on the security services and police, but also on their ultimate 'masters' - the government, specifically as to whether the inability to track the terrorist following warnings from the public was linked to lack of resources.