UK General Election 2017

[ProfessorDavey]

All that is trumped by 1) the political project is a mill around everybody's neck, 2) the EU is dying (even those at the centre of the monster have aired grave concerns over it) and 3) though it will be choppy for us in the short term in the long term we will be better off, as the EU sinks to the bottom of the ocean.

With regards to 2) the EU's share of the world's GDP is dropping year on year. It's a dead parrot. It only looks alive because it has been nailed to its perch.

Swivel-eyed blinkered assertions.

You show a worrying lack of understanding of history. The EU has been astonishingly successful in driving economic prosperity, and that includes the UK. Don't forget that prior to joining the EU the UK was the 'sick man of europe' a country slowly falling apart as it was no longer able to benefit from its colonial past.

The EU isn't dying - it will survive, grow and prosper with or without the UK. If it was such a basket case why are so many countries desperate to join.

And your comment about declining share of world GDP is true but not really relevant - as the greatest GDP growth is always in developing countries the proportional share from the developed countries always shrinks. So sure the EU proportion has shrunk, but so has that of the USA, Canada, Australia etc etc.

So for example in the past 60 years or so the proportion of the the world economy represented by the USA has dropped from 30% to 18%.

[ProfessorDavey]

But that is true for everyone, even the EU. So what is your point?

The EU has to keep to US rules etc. if it wants to trade with the US.

Non trade barriers are barriers imposed on us that we don't have a say in.

We currently don't have those with the EU - we will if we leave the single market, regardless of any trade deal we negotiate.

[jakswan]

Jeremy can speak for himself, but to me soft brexit means staying in the single market.

That is a very soft Brexit, its not an absolute term.

The notion of a trade deal is a red herring,

Nope there is

Softest Brexit - Member Single Market
Soft Brexit - Free Trade Deal
Harder Brexit - Trade Deal better then WTO rules.
Hardest Brexit - WTO rules.

The EU has negotiated free trade deals with all sorts of non EU countries, and has more in place than any other country (or group of countries on the planet I gather),

Citation required.

yet none come close to being as good as being a member of the single market. There is often a focus on tariffs on goods, but actually these are fairly limited in effect, particularly for a service driven economy such as the UK. The key is the non tariff barriers, including those on services. And even with trade deals those non tariff barriers remain in place and will for the UK. Are you really claiming that the UK will be allowed to trade with the EU but ignore the EU regulations, for example being able to sell products in the EU without the CE mark. They won't, if they want to trade the UK will have to abide by EU regulation just as every other country does.

Claimed nothing of the sort; trade with US need to obey US regs, India same, China same.

[ProfessorDavey]

Nope there is

Softest Brexit - Member Single Market
Soft Brexit - Free Trade Deal
Harder Brexit - Trade Deal better then WTO rules.
Hardest Brexit - WTO rules.

Sorry - I disagree.

Although it isn't totally defined is is broadly accepted that the distinction between soft and hard brexit is whether we remain members of the single market, e.g. via EEA. If we leave the single market that is hard brexit - sure there are degrees of hardness, but all are hard brexit. Soft brexit means staying in the single market and/or customs union.

This distinction has been well accepted by those on both the remain and leave sides.

Stop playing mission creep and lowering expectations.

[jakswan]

Sorry - I disagree.

Although it isn't totally defined is is broadly accepted that the distinction between soft and hard brexit is whether we remain members of the single market, e.g. via EEA. If we leave the single market that is hard brexit - sure there are degrees of hardness, but all are hard brexit. Soft brexit means staying in the single market and/or customs union.

This distinction has been well accepted by those on both the remain and leave sides.

No David Cameron, George Osborne, Boris, Micheal Gove all said Brexit means leaving the single market, two leading figures from both leave and remain. There are various versions of Brexit, it is not binary.

Stop playing mission creep and lowering expectations.

LOL do you think I'm the Prime Minister or something this is essentially a private conversation.

[ProfessorDavey]

No David Cameron, George Osborne, Boris, Micheal Gove all said Brexit means leaving the single market, two leading figures from both leave and remain. There are various versions of Brexit, it is not binary.

I'm not talking about whether or not we would leave the single market but the definitions of hard and soft brexit - I've yet to come across a definition that doesn't suggest the distinction is based on whether we remain a member of the single market. If we leave the single market that is a hard brexit.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Also apple pie and mother love!

How is he going to fund these?

Also £350 million p/w for the NHS

How are we going to fund Brexit?

[ekim]

Now listen here you chaps, this is the way the election should be handled ...... http://film.britishcouncil.org/general-election

[Gordon]

Now listen here you chaps, this is the way the election should be handled ...... http://film.britishcouncil.org/general-election

Brilliant website!

Lots of goodies to explore, so ta muchly.

[ekim]

Brilliant website!

Lots of goodies to explore, so ta muchly.

Ah, those were the days!

[Nearly Sane]

I suspect that were this to be happening to Jeremy Corbyn it would receiving more publicity


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/downing-street-chaos-theresa-mays-10268666

[jakswan]

I'm not talking about whether or not we would leave the single market but the definitions of hard and soft brexit - I've yet to come across a definition that doesn't suggest the distinction is based on whether we remain a member of the single market. If we leave the single market that is a hard brexit.

That is your opinion others are available.

[Jack Knave]

Swivel-eyed blinkered assertions.

You show a worrying lack of understanding of history. The EU has been astonishingly successful in driving economic prosperity, and that includes the UK. Don't forget that prior to joining the EU the UK was the 'sick man of europe' a country slowly falling apart as it was no longer able to benefit from its colonial past.

And yet you yourself is full of assertions. That makes you duplicitous.

That is in the past tense. The USSR grew in its early years but was built on utopian madness and so died, and the EU is the same.

The UK hasn't grown because of the EU it has grown it has appeared to grow based on an illusion of the neo-liberal project. We have massive debts. So does the EU - look at the Eurozone, its central bank the ECB is taking on a shed load of debt off the banks which will end in tears. 

The EU isn't dying - it will survive, grow and prosper with or without the UK. If it was such a basket case why are so many countries desperate to join.

That's an assertion!!! They are joining because they are bigger basket cases and are looking for free hand-outs.

And your comment about declining share of world GDP is true but not really relevant - as the greatest GDP growth is always in developing countries the proportional share from the developed countries always shrinks. So sure the EU proportion has shrunk, but so has that of the USA, Canada, Australia etc etc.

So for example in the past 60 years or so the proportion of the the world economy represented by the USA has dropped from 30% to 18%.

The share is going down for all because the corporations etc. have got cheaper labour elsewhere - rust belts!!! This is the rich elites sucking these developed nations dry.

[Jack Knave]

Non trade barriers are barriers imposed on us that we don't have a say in.

We currently don't have those with the EU - we will if we leave the single market, regardless of any trade deal we negotiate.

It's a two way street, dumbass! Crikey, you're talking as though the EU are the masters of the universe. "King Charles I" divine right and all that bollocks. Brussels isn't manned by gods, they are fallible idiots.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jack,

But I thought the EU was run by the bankers and the elite who hold guns to our heads

Gonnagle.

[SweetPea]

Dear Jack,

But I thought the EU was run by the bankers and the elite who hold guns to our heads

Gonnagle.

Gonners, look-up the Bilderbergers, they are behind the EU. Faceless controllers.

[Jack Knave]

Dear Jack,

But I thought the EU was run by the bankers and the elite who hold guns to our heads

Gonnagle.

What are you replying to? What's your point?

[ProfessorDavey]

It's a two way street, dumbass! Crikey, you're talking as though the EU are the masters of the universe. "King Charles I" divine right and all that bollocks. Brussels isn't manned by gods, they are fallible idiots.

What on earth are you talking about.

Slapping a whole load of barriers to trade with just about the largest economic block on the planet that is right on our doorstep. That's really going to help the UK economy. If we try to play a game of trade war with the EU we will lose.

Point being that if we want to trade with the EU (and it isn't a case of want but of imperative and necessity) we have to play by their rules. And actually more than that we have to adopt their rules as our rules because UK industry isn't going to take kindly to a doubling of red tape if we have our own UK rules for UK only trade and another set for trade with the EU.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Sweetpea,

No thanks!

Dear Jack,

On another thread, my Corbyn one, you told me all about the bankers and elite holding guns to our heads, oh and trashing our economy, which seems a bit pointless, why trash the economy, if we are skint we can't buy their goods.

Gonnagle.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Forum,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39670703

Well overseas aid is to remain but it may be paid for by increasing your income tax, the Tories increasing income tax, a brave new world, or just more smoke and mirrors.

Gonnagle.

[Nearly Sane]

Dear Forum,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39670703

Well overseas aid is to remain but it may be paid for by increasing your income tax, the Tories increasing income tax, a brave new world, or just more smoke and mirrors.

Gonnagle.

I think we have to be careful about how things are phrased and making connections. It may be that the overall spend remains but other types of spending in terms of defence may be counted. The possible increases in tax are not to keep overseas aid spending.

[Anchorman]

 Maybe it's not incisive cut-and-thrust analysis....but, hey, the Dug nails it as far as May's concerned.... http://www.thenational.scot/news/15239187.Wee_Ginger_Dug__SNP_then_Yes_____that___s_the_path_to_our_Scottish_independence_revolution/

[Humph Warden Bennett]

My tuppence worth.

The Tories want to win "properly". The Lib Dems have nothing to lose. But what is Corbyn playing at?

[Jack Knave]

What on earth are you talking about.

I'm talking to you, hadn't you noticed? Probably not, hence your incoherent replies and the level of your understanding.

Slapping a whole load of barriers to trade with just about the largest economic block on the planet that is right on our doorstep. That's really going to help the UK economy. If we try to play a game of trade war with the EU we will lose.

The rest of the world is bigger - hadn't you noticed! 

Point being that if we want to trade with the EU (and it isn't a case of want but of imperative and necessity) we have to play by their rules. And actually more than that we have to adopt their rules as our rules because UK industry isn't going to take kindly to a doubling of red tape if we have our own UK rules for UK only trade and another set for trade with the EU.

We buy more off them than they do off us, and as our trade with them is high end goods that will only affect the more successful economies in the EU like Germany who have the upper hand in Brussels, such that, their industries will put a gun against the likes of Merkel and tell her to give us; and them, a good deal. And she, or whoever, will do the same to the weaker, parasitical, members to do as she says if they want to get all those goodies from Brussels.

[Jack Knave]

Dear Sweetpea,

No thanks!

Dear Jack,

On another thread, my Corbyn one, you told me all about the bankers and elite holding guns to our heads, oh and trashing our economy, which seems a bit pointless, why trash the economy, if we are skint we can't buy their goods.

Gonnagle.

They control the money. They get it free from the central banks as QE. They don't need trade, they don't need industries, they don't need jobs or the people and so they don't need the taxes. And they don't need the people to buy anything. They don't need nations or governments. Look at the way Greece has been treated - that's the fate for the whole world i.e. people and nations destroyed. They are one big fish sucking up all the wealth, all the assets, all the globe. To them we are dead meat. The people at the top are psychopaths - you can't bargain with them, you can't reason with them, they feel no pain and they will not stop until everything is theirs; including your lives.