UK General Election 2017

[Aruntraveller]

In the unlikely event Labour wins the election, I suspect Corbyn will change his mind when he discovers he can't keep his election pledges.

Oh yes because Theresa never changes her mind.

Why are you castigating Corbyn for something he may do in the future - but letting Theresa May off for things she is doing now.

No General Election. Remember?

In favour of remaining in the EU. Remember?

Corbyn's policies right or wrong are what he believes in and what he will work for. How the heck can you tell what May believes in when she flip flops like a fish out of water over every issue she is faced with?

You are applying the same distorting lens to Corbyn that the press use. And you claim you aren't influenced by anyone. Yeah right.

[jakswan]

All I was pointing out that as well as the rule change, if the party was reduced to a size where Corbyn supporters ade up 15% of the MPs, he might go before then. If the rule change does come in in September, I think he may well go if there had been a bad lies. If so, I doubt there will be a challenge completed before then though it may force someone to run.

I will bet they (centre-left) will be after him the second BBC announces its exit poll. If he does refuse to go I think a split will be inevitable, maybe they will go in with LibDems and start "Real Labour" or a variation of New Labour.

[Nearly Sane]

I will bet they (centre-left) will be after him the second BBC announces its exit poll. If he does refuse to go I think a split will be inevitable, maybe they will go in with LibDems and start "Real Labour" or a variation of New Labour.

The problem surely being is that there is no indication that a 'centre left' candidate would win even after a loss. Further if the loss is catastrophic it may mean that there would be the possibility of a Corbyn supported candidate dependent on what the make up of MPs is, and they would then win.

A split is indeed possible but without union money risky.

[wigginhall]

I think Labour are also haunted by the SDP.   In fact, the more right-wing MPs could join the Lib Dems, I guess, although to do it after the election might provoke some anger. 

One of the interesting questions is if another leader would do better, e.g. Yvette Cooper.   I suppose the coming men are Starmer and Khan.   Talk about a poisoned chalice. 

[Nearly Sane]

There are serious difficulties of Labour MPs joining the Lib Dems from the Ld viewpoint. Too many could be seen as a takeover from an aggressor. And there are still scars for Liberals from the SDP as well.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It seems to me that the excuse not to vote Labour is that the Richest will hide some of the money instead of just storing it in a place where it will not help the wider economy.

Trickle down has proved to create less and less trickle.

The many under the present system have had to produce more for less.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I will bet they (centre-left) will be after him the second BBC announces its exit poll. If he does refuse to go I think a split will be inevitable, maybe they will go in with LibDems and start "Real Labour" or a variation of New Labour.

As Kuntsberg said on the BBC Milliband went a couple of inches to the left and lost.
Corbyns achievement will be to announce the alternative and forcing the Tories to adopt
Milliband ism May can now only disappoint and fail in 2022.

[wigginhall]

But she has carried out a brilliant coup, by absorbing UKIP, which gives her an extra number of votes. 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

But she has carried out a brilliant coup, by absorbing UKIP, which gives her an extra number of votes.

What happened to Mark Reckless was the writing on the wall for UKIP it was a dividend waiting for the Tories whoever the leader. May has made pie crust promises and with shit Brexit can only disappoint.
If the Tories remain popular even a year on then that will be due to a shared masochism I can't even begin to understand.

[jakswan]

The problem surely being is that there is no indication that a 'centre left' candidate would win even after a loss. Further if the loss is catastrophic it may mean that there would be the possibility of a Corbyn supported candidate dependent on what the make up of MPs is, and they would then win.

A split is indeed possible but without union money risky.

If Corbyn goes and a hard left candidate can't get 15% of nominations then only centre left will be on the ballot. This is the centre left's last chance to get the party back.

[jakswan]

It seems to me that the excuse not to vote Labour is that the Richest will hide some of the money instead of just storing it in a place where it will not help the wider economy.

Trickle down has proved to create less and less trickle.

The many under the present system have had to produce more for less.

It not about excuses but about reasons not to vote. Anecdotally chatting with non-partisan work colleagues today, they would consider LibDems but don't fancy Fallon all that much, Labour doesn't come across as capable, not overly impressed with Tories either.

[jakswan]

But she has carried out a brilliant coup, by absorbing UKIP, which gives her an extra number of votes.

Many UKIP voters were Labour, possibly went that way when Labour were either sneering, ignoring them or calling them racists.

UKIP was like a gateway drug.

[Nearly Sane]

If Corbyn goes and a hard left candidate can't get 15% of nominations then only centre left will be on the ballot. This is the centre left's last chance to get the party back.

Which is why he won't go unless he is confident someone he agrees with can get in. That is why i was raising the possibility that after the election there migt be sufficient Corbyn supporters to make up 15%.

BTW i find the use of hard left here merely a pejorative attempt at labelling rather than anything useful.

[Nearly Sane]

It not about excuses but about reasons not to vote. Anecdotally chatting with non-partisan work colleagues today, they would consider LibDems but don't fancy Fallon all that much, Labour doesn't come across as capable, not overly impressed with Tories either.

I fancy neither Farron or Fallon but I think that we aren't voting for a PM

[Nearly Sane]

Many UKIP voters were Labour, possibly went that way when Labour were either sneering, ignoring them or calling them racists.

UKIP was like a gateway drug.

So none of them were racists?

[floo]

Many UKIP voters were Labour, possibly went that way when Labour were either sneering, ignoring them or calling them racists.

UKIP was like a gateway drug.

Many people who vote for that ghastly party are racists, that is the attraction of it!

[jakswan]

Which is why he won't go unless he is confident someone he agrees with can get in. That is why i was raising the possibility that after the election there migt be sufficient Corbyn supporters to make up 15%.

BTW i find the use of hard left here merely a pejorative attempt at labelling rather than anything useful.

Don't disagree.

Hard left - extreme left - most left - socialist  take your pick.

[jakswan]

So none of them were racists?

Some possibly, all doubtful, are some socialists racists, e.g. anti-semitic.

[jeremyp]

I know it's awful when a leader consistently says what he will do and doesn't change his mind when a result/public opinion goes another way. Absolutely spineless.

No, it's the opposite of spineless.

[wigginhall]

I think Brown got 29% of the vote, and Miliband, through a supreme effort, got 30%.   Corbyn is now hoping to soar to 31%, well, keep climbing comrades.   

[Nearly Sane]

No, it's the opposite of spineless.

Think that was Trent's point

[jeremyp]

The problem surely being is that there is no indication that a 'centre left' candidate would win even after a loss. Further if the loss is catastrophic it may mean that there would be the possibility of a Corbyn supported candidate dependent on what the make up of MPs is, and they would then win.

A split is indeed possible but without union money risky.

It doesn't matter. If Labour lose, they need a leader of a good enough calibre to lead an effective opposition. At this point, I don't give a damn if he or she is right of Tony Blair or left of Karl Marx. I want somebody who is not a useless shit like Jeremy Corbyn.

Look at all the things the Tories have done since 2015. It's been an open goal for any opposition leader on the right side of fucking incompetent. But here we are with the Tories on over 40% in the opinion polls. Corbyn must go.

[Nearly Sane]

The issue though is surely that it may not be something that any leader might be competent in leading? The question is whether Labour in its current form can continue.

[jeremyp]

Think that was Trent's point

Before the Brexit vote, the Labour official policy (as far as I could divine) was Remain. Now Corbyn bleats "the people have decided". Margaret Becket said in the debate that it Brexit would be a catastrophe but she would vote with the party i.e. for Brexit. Current Labour policy on Brexitseems to be "remove spines at any opportunity" and it flows from the top.

Jeremy Corbyn is probably a Brexiter but before the vote he sort of claimed to be on the side of Remain but his campaigning for Remain was crap. At least on that topic he is utterly spineless.

His manifesto is quite spineless too. Tax increases only for the highest earners. yeah great. They won't be enough. Most of us need to pay more taxes just to maintain the NHS but he is too spineless to admit it and he's just gone for the easy "let's kick the people we think most people hate" option.

[jeremyp]

The issue though is surely that it may not be something that any leader might be competent in leading? The question is whether Labour in its current form can continue.

If it can't continue, it will only be because it can't elect an effective leader.