UK General Election 2017

[Gordon]

The odd thing too is that we are still getting the 'and we'll get a great Brexit deal' mantra: apart from this sounding like a request for a thoughtfully arranged natural disaster, I'd imagine the EU negotiators will be well aware that they're dealing with a hapless Tory government that has ran out of feet in which to shoot itself.

[jakswan]

The odd thing too is that we are still getting the 'and we'll get a great Brexit deal' mantra: apart from this sounding like a request for a thoughtfully arranged natural disaster, I'd imagine the EU negotiators will be well aware that they're dealing with a hapless Tory government that has ran out of feet in which to shoot itself.

Baffled why LibDems don't put themselves up as possible coalition partners for Tories, could extract  referendum as the price. Seems remainers think they won in this election by the time they realise they lost it will be too late, DUP deal Tuesday.

Also hearing Gove in as DPM.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Partying like it's still 18/4/2017
Telegraph has it that the Conservatives failed to inform the Young "What's what".

What part of "do as you're told" did they think younger voters didn't understand.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Also hearing Gove in as DPM.

That'll secure the pylon, lift and escalator enthusiasts. Phew Tories in forever on landslides all the way...no wait...er.

[Harrowby Hall]

Baffled why LibDems don't put themselves up as possible coalition partners for Tories, could extract  referendum as the price.

Nobody yet seems to have considered another of the genies to be liberated from the bottle: the young. Corbyn motivated young people to enfranchise themselves. And they did.

If the demographic analysis following the EU membership referendum is reliable, then it may be that - already - "the will of the people" has changed because the electorate itself has changed. I suspect that the Tories know that, and that to enable another referendum in the short term would be just one step too far. They would lose all credibility.

[jakswan]

Nobody yet seems to have considered another of the genies to be liberated from the bottle: the young. Corbyn motivated young people to enfranchise themselves. And they did.

If the demographic analysis following the EU membership referendum is reliable, then it may be that - already - "the will of the people" has changed because the electorate itself has changed. I suspect that the Tories know that, and that to enable another referendum in the short term would be just one step too far. They would lose all credibility.

Maybe but it wasn't in their manifesto, leaving the single market was in labour and tory.

One party was offering another vote and the electorate ignored them.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Maybe but it wasn't in their manifesto, leaving the single market was in labour and tory.

One party was offering another vote and the electorate ignored them.

A fair point...though who would offer the almost inevitable referendum after that.
Given everything isn't a Brexit for jobs the optimum solution here.

Connected this is the phenomenon that voters are beginning to disconnect Brexit with party.

The expectation is that the government in question has a responsibility to sort this out.That is why Boris Johnson Should never be countenanced and that the Lib Dems should follow your suggestion and go into coalition with second referendum as the price.

Out of Labour and the Tories I'm afraid Corbyn fulfils the qualities the Tories thought were necessary and thought they had. Mistakenly I think.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Government reshuffle really looks like rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. Bringing Gove back in is just like making the iceberg the minister.

[ProfessorDavey]

A fair point...though who would offer the almost inevitable referendum after that.
Given everything isn't a Brexit for jobs the optimum solution here.

Connected this is the phenomenon that voters are beginning to disconnect Brexit with party.

The expectation is that the government in question has a responsibility to sort this out.That is why Boris Johnson Should never be countenanced and that the Lib Dems should follow your suggestion and go into coalition with second referendum as the price.

Out of Labour and the Tories I'm afraid Corbyn fulfils the qualities the Tories thought were necessary and thought they had. Mistakenly I think.

One thing is clear after the election. There isn't a mandate for May's hard brexit that prioritises control of migration over the economy. Nor is there a mandate for 'no deal is better than a bad deal'.

I think we are swinging back towards retaining membership of single market and customs union. Seems to be that is the only thing left that cannot be discounted as having been rejected by the public.

[jakswan]

One thing is clear after the election. There isn't a mandate for May's hard brexit that prioritises control of migration over the economy. Nor is there a mandate for 'no deal is better than a bad deal'.

I think we are swinging back towards retaining membership of single market and customs union. Seems to be that is the only thing left that cannot be discounted as having been rejected by the public.

Labour and Tory both committed to leaving the single market, John Mcdonnell confirmed this as did JC.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-single-market-jeremy-corbyn_uk_593d320ee4b02402687a2460

The UK staying in the single market is a busted flush.

[Rhiannon]

Labour and Tory both committed to leaving the single market, John Mcdonnell confirmed this as did JC.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-single-market-jeremy-corbyn_uk_593d320ee4b02402687a2460

The UK staying in the single market is a busted flush.

And I don't believe a lot of Labour voters realised that.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

And I don't believe a lot of Labour voters realised that.

I think the labour voter with regards Brexit expected a jobs Brexit with rights as workers remaining.

The benefits of the single market I think is the Tory term for compensation to match any loss of Brexit which Davis proposed and dropped.

They also expect a deal not a cliff edge. I think all voting realise this is uncharted territory.

Labour will have to judge if they are getting a jobs Brexit and no doubt the Tories will carry on until businesses pips squeak.

[Anchorman]

Government reshuffle really looks like rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. Bringing Gove back in is just like making the iceberg the minister.

-
Hmmmmm........a rat JOINING a sinking ship?

[jakswan]

And I don't believe a lot of Labour voters realised that.

Its not just Labour voters, its Labour MP's, I know he is not MP but representative, seen Alistair Campbell tweet today.

"I suspect some of the young people voting Labour and voting for the first time were hoping for something a bit less Brextremist from JC/JMcD"

Meanwhile we saw Labour MP's today delightfully telling interviewers that the Tories would tear themselves apart over Brexit, ironic its going to be Labour who do exactly that!

Weird init, I told posters here if you didn't want to leave the Single Market then the LibDems was the only game in town and they invested all their time and effort in defending Corbyn.

A last gasp LibDem - Tory coalition could save the day for remainers and get a referendum on a deal in the Queens speech, yet they are deluding themselves they won when in fact they lost.

The establishment wants you to think there will be another general election soon and can change all this, dream on.

The DUP will do a deal Tuesday, after that any hopes of membership of the single market/EU is possible is over.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Its not just Labour voters, its Labour MP's, I know he is not MP but representative, seen Alistair Campbell tweet today.

"I suspect some of the young people voting Labour and voting for the first time were hoping for something a bit less Brextremist from JC/JMcD"

Meanwhile we saw Labour MP's today delightfully telling interviewers that the Tories would tear themselves apart over Brexit, ironic its going to be Labour who do exactly that!

Weird init, I told posters here if you didn't want to leave the Single Market then the LibDems was the only game in town and they invested all their time and effort in defending Corbyn.

A last gasp LibDem - Tory coalition could save the day for remainers and get a referendum on a deal in the Queens speech, yet they are deluding themselves they won when in fact they lost.

The establishment wants you to think there will be another general election soon and can change all this, dream on.

The DUP will do a deal Tuesday, after that any hopes of membership of the single market/EU is possible is over.

I don't think the Tories will do the deal with the LibDems although that would certainly relieve pressure on the DUP front.

Secondly Brexit since there are factors out of the control is a negotiation and not exclusively a manifesto commitment.

Corbyn can afford to shit his support off on this one but of course will ultimately pay.

I think we need to look at this question as an equivalent of say ''matching spending for the first period of government''. The getout will be that it is a Jobs Brexit, the groundswell when voters became more aware was that this was only possible if (fill in gap).

On the other hand it could be that they were caught out by May's announcement that an agreement was on the cards. After all May had been to the Queen. In the event of that the manifesto of labour would have been defeated anyway and a new one will have to appear at the nexr election.
Technically then Labour are not bound to any manifesto commitment.

More importantly though if May has Duped her Madge and the GBP about the status of her deal then that must be a serious constitutional issue.

My guess is that Corbyn knows May is going to be able to make that speech and carry on.
I can't see how Labour though can be as unflexible as you suggest in negotiation and willing to crash out.

Campbell is always Good value but is not the man on the ground as party senior leaders in an omnifuckup not of there own making as Mc Donnell and Corbyn are and where political guile and cunning are necessary.

[Gordon]

TM called election to strengthen her hand re. Brexit but ended up weakened so you might  expect that an astute PM might consider that perhaps popular support for Brexit has weakened: it was suggested that the demise of UKIP would see the Tories stronger since they'd benefit from these voted, and though UKIP bombed the Tories were still weakened

That the Tories seem so determined on Brexit no matter what, and despite losing their majority, suggests to me that this is still all about the internal affairs of the Tory party. They must be desperate if they're prepared to get into bed with the DUP rather than face the possibility that opinion on Brexit may have changed even if their internal rogue element hasn't.

[SusanDoris]

I don't know if this is relevant here, but aftre the referendum it was noted that 3 out of 4 young voters were remainers.
Yesterday I heard part of a programme in which a group of teenagers were listening to a discussion. Afterward it appeared to be that they were, or would have been, Labour and all agreed that if more young people had voted in the referendum, the result would have been a much clearer majority for leave. This does not accord with the 3 out of 4 number of remainers.

[jakswan]

TM called election to strengthen her hand re. Brexit but ended up weakened so you might  expect that an astute PM might consider that perhaps popular support for Brexit has weakened: it was suggested that the demise of UKIP would see the Tories stronger since they'd benefit from these voted, and though UKIP bombed the Tories were still weakened

That the Tories seem so determined on Brexit no matter what, and despite losing their majority, suggests to me that this is still all about the internal affairs of the Tory party. They must be desperate if they're prepared to get into bed with the DUP rather than face the possibility that opinion on Brexit may have changed even if their internal rogue element hasn't.

Snp / Libdems anti-brexit, Lab/Tory pro-brexit, popular support for Brexit never been higher. Labour had 3line whip FOR invoking art50.

[torridon]

I don't know if this is relevant here, but aftre the referendum it was noted that 3 out of 4 young voters were remainers.
Yesterday I heard part of a programme in which a group of teenagers were listening to a discussion. Afterward it appeared to be that they were, or would have been, Labour and all agreed that if more young people had voted in the referendum, the result would have been a much clearer majority for leave. This does not accord with the 3 out of 4 number of remainers.

Corbyn did very well in the election partly because his campaign was effective at getting the young to vote, this in contrast to the referendum where nobody seriously expected a Leave vote and so the young, who are overwhelmingly in favour of Remain but also notoriously apathetic when it comes to voting, failed to turn up on ballot day. 

[Sriram]

As an outsider, I have a doubt on Brexit.

If the Tories are for Brexit and the Labour is also for Brexit...then how does this changed scenario with a larger ratio of Labour vs Tory in parliament change anything?

[Gordon]

Snp / Libdems anti-brexit, Lab/Tory pro-brexit, popular support for Brexit never been higher. Labour had 3line whip FOR invoking art50.

That is true.

My impression though, and I many have the wrong impression, is that even though the majority for Leave wasn't massive, and case for Brexit that convinced some involved xenophobia and downright lies, the received wisdom quickly became that it was a convincing result based on a sound case put by competent politicians whereas, in my view, a major change is being driven through on the basis of a shambolic campaign, a narrow majority and by a political party who not only didn't have a clear plan for the result they actually got they, as has just been demonstrated, are now lead by an incompetent PM.

Perhaps the clamour for Brexit is obvious elsewhere in the UK but I've yet to encounter anyone I know personally, and I've had quite a few conversations on this, who is pro-Brexit: it's more the case that anecdotally they think it is madness. 

[jakswan]

That is true.

My impression though, and I many have the wrong impression, is that even though the majority for Leave wasn't massive, and case for Brexit that convinced some involved xenophobia and downright lies, the received wisdom quickly became that it was a convincing result based on a sound case put by competent politicians whereas, in my view, a major change is being driven through on the basis of a shambolic campaign, a narrow majority and by a political party who not only didn't have a clear plan for the result they actually got they, as has just been demonstrated, are now lead by an incompetent PM.

Perhaps the clamour for Brexit is obvious elsewhere in the UK but I've yet to encounter anyone I know personally, and I've had quite a few conversations on this, who is pro-Brexit: it's more the case that anecdotally they think it is madness.

Tories in Govt have manifesto promise to leave, Corbyn clearly committed to leaving single market.

[ProfessorDavey]

Tories in Govt have manifesto promise to leave

Which was rejected by the electorate - hence they failed to gain an overall majority.

[SusanDoris]

That is true.

My impression though, and I many have the wrong impression, is that even though the majority for Leave wasn't massive, and case for Brexit that convinced some involved xenophobia and downright lies, the received wisdom quickly became that it was a convincing result based on a sound case put by competent politicians whereas, in my view, a major change is being driven through on the basis of a shambolic campaign, a narrow majority and by a political party who not only didn't have a clear plan for the result they actually got they, as has just been demonstrated, are now lead by an incompetent PM.

Perhaps the clamour for Brexit is obvious elsewhere in the UK but I've yet to encounter anyone I know personally, and I've had quite a few conversations on this, who is pro-Brexit: it's more the case that anecdotally they think it is madness.

Agreed. I keep trying to find optimnistic aspects to all this, but it is hard!  The only really positive thing (and I've probably said this already, but it will take too long to check!) is that all this will not lead to War.

[ProfessorDavey]

Corbyn clearly committed to leaving single market.

There was no commitment in the Labour manifesto to leaving the single market.

And even if there were, so what. Labour lost the election - it isn't bound by what it said prior to the election. What losing parties do is rethink their position on the basis of not winning an election on their previous manifesto. The current mood music (see Barry Gardiner's comments today) and Keir Starmer - single market membership is smack back on the table.

What we do know is that May's view of hard brexit (migration prioritised over the economy), no deal better than bad deal is dead in the water. Rejected by the electorate and without a commons majority.