Author Topic: UK General Election 2017  (Read 113561 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #1600 on: October 18, 2017, 05:49:06 PM »
I think you are somewhat confusing democratic with representative (in demographic terms)....


Since HH doesn't use the terms democratic or representative, how is he confusing the terms?
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 05:54:03 PM by Nearly Sane »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #1601 on: October 18, 2017, 06:08:04 PM »
Since HH doesn't use the terms democratic or representative, how is he confusing the terms?
Oh here we go again:

'... a second chamber containing representatives of the total voting population who are elected ...'

I think even you are surpassing yourself in your pedantry (another 'p'-word) if you wish to nit pick about representatives rather than representative.

I suspect most of us would consider systems associated with voting population and members who are elected to be, err, democratic.

But actually the distinction between two meanings of representative in government terms was the point I was making.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 06:12:21 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Nearly Sane

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #1602 on: October 18, 2017, 06:25:27 PM »
Oh here we go again:

'... a second chamber containing representatives of the total voting population who are elected ...'

I think even you are surpassing yourself in your pedantry (another 'p'-word) if you wish to nit pick about representatives rather than representative.

I suspect most of us would consider systems associated with voting population and members who are elected to be, err, democratic.

But actually the distinction between two meanings of representative in government terms was the point I was making.

And the current sytem of democratic election in political theory would be described as representative democracy as opposed to delegated so not sure what you are trying to say. So my MP and indeed my MSP (that's a Member of the Scottish Parliament) are democratically elected representatives.

You seemed to be arguing for a second chamber that is chosen rather than elected, so I suggest here your elision of a representative and a set of people who are representative of a demographic was an easy error to make. However, it was misrepresentative of HH's position.


ProfessorDavey

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #1603 on: October 18, 2017, 06:35:27 PM »
And the current sytem of democratic election in political theory would be described as representative democracy as opposed to delegated so not sure what you are trying to say. So my MP and indeed my MSP (that's a Member of the Scottish Parliament) are democratically elected representatives.

You seemed to be arguing for a second chamber that is chosen rather than elected, so I suggest here your elision of a representative and a set of people who are representative of a demographic was an easy error to make. However, it was misrepresentative of HH's position.
I'm not arguing for anything - but the earlier discussion was largely about disproportionate over representation of leaders of one religion in the HoLs, with Vlad suggesting a better balance whereby membership of the HoLs was managed to make it more representative (in demographic terms) of a range of 'world views' (his term not mine).

All I was doing was pointing out that we may wish for the second chamber to be representative of the wider population (demographically) - we may also wish the second chamber to be democratically elected, but those two laudable wishes might not be compatible.

So if we want a second change to look like the make up of the country, I suspect that will only be achieved via an appointed process. If we want it to be democratic we need to recognise that we get what the voters decide, whether that overall make up looks anything like the country demographically or not.

Of course at the moment we have the worst of both worlds - a second chamber massively unrepresentative demographically, but also not elected.

And by the way I do know what an MSP is - and yes your MSPs are democratically representative, but the make up of the Scottish Parliament is not demographically representative of the Scottish population (not having a go at the Scottish Parliament specifically, I suspect it is more demographically representative of the wider population than Westminster, but that's not saying much).

So for example only just under 35% of MSPs are women, yet they make up over 50% of the Scottish population. Just 2 MSPs (1.5%) are from ethnic minorities, yet the ethnic minority population in Scotland is over 4%. I suspect there are other examples on age, disability, perhaps sexuality, although not as easy to get the information.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 06:50:09 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Harrowby Hall

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #1604 on: October 18, 2017, 06:42:30 PM »
Thank you, NS. You have clearly expressed my position. I value the Prof's comments on and about my submission but I did consider the direction in which Vlad's suggestions were leading was not appropriate for a major democracy in the 21st century.

Perhaps I could have been more careful when writing my earlier post, but it is a quickly written contribution to an on-line forum not a political positioning paper nor an undergraduate essay.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 06:48:54 PM by Harrowby Hall »
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #1605 on: October 18, 2017, 06:47:50 PM »
Thank you, NS. You have clearly expressed my position.

Perhaps I could have been more careful when writing my earlier post, but it is a quickly written contribution to an on-line forum not a political positioning paper nor an undergraduate essay.
All I was doing was pointing out that we sometimes need to be careful what we wish for.

It is easy to wish for a democratically elected parliament AND one that is demographically representative of the wider population. It is hard to achieve both at the same time.

Nearly Sane

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #1606 on: October 18, 2017, 06:48:57 PM »
I'm not arguing for anything - but the earlier discussion was largely about disproportionate over representation of leaders of one religion in the HoLs, with Vlad suggesting a better balance whereby membership of the HoLs was managed to make it more representative (in demographic terms) of a range of 'world views' (his term not mine).
....

so your point was about the difference between demographically and democratically representative, not between democratic and representative. It's good that you have admitted your error but that's nothing to do with taking up HH on a point he didn't make. You should probably apoligise to him.


And good to know that you know what an MSP is, well done.

Harrowby Hall

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #1607 on: October 18, 2017, 06:50:34 PM »

It is easy to wish for a democratically elected parliament AND one that is demographically representative of the wider population. It is hard to achieve both at the same time.

Very true.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #1608 on: October 18, 2017, 06:51:13 PM »
All I was doing was pointing out that we sometimes need to be careful what we wish for.

It is easy to wish for a democratically elected parliament AND one that is demographically representative of the wider population. It is hard to achieve both at the same time.

That might be easy to wish for both , but it wasn't what HH stated. That was all your doing and ignored the obvious meaning of a democratically elected representative in HH's post.

Nearly Sane

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #1609 on: October 18, 2017, 06:53:12 PM »
Very true.
Surely if it happens it's a fluke rather than an achievement?



Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #1610 on: October 19, 2017, 12:04:16 AM »
Thank you, NS. You have clearly expressed my position. I value the Prof's comments on and about my submission but I did consider the direction in which Vlad's suggestions were leading was not appropriate for a major democracy in the 21st century.

Perhaps I could have been more careful when writing my earlier post, but it is a quickly written contribution to an on-line forum not a political positioning paper nor an undergraduate essay.
Look we have HoC where the professional politicians go and at least one of the parties seems more dedicated to itself. Nothing though that an alternative voting system couldn't fix.
If My proposals were developed then the second house would still be elected through the organisations and groups which they represent or have represented.

2 houses elected by General election just means 1 House of commons of professional politicians dedicated to party rather than nation, sitting in two places

Sebastian Toe

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #1611 on: October 19, 2017, 12:07:49 AM »
If My proposals were developed then the second house would still be elected through the organisations and groups which they represent or have represented.

How many lords would you propose?
How many organisations?
Which organisations?

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #1612 on: October 19, 2017, 12:12:55 AM »
How many lords would you propose?

Six.......You, me, Shaker and BlueHillSide........... all three of them.

Nearly Sane

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #1613 on: October 19, 2017, 12:15:33 AM »
Look we have HoC where the professional politicians go and at least one of the parties seems more dedicated to itself. Nothing though that an alternative voting system couldn't fix.
If My proposals were developed then the second house would still be elected through the organisations and groups which they represent or have represented.

2 houses elected by General election just means 1 House of commons of professional politicians dedicated to party rather than nation, sitting in two places
as opposed to  a house appointed by some people.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 12:23:16 AM by Nearly Sane »

Harrowby Hall

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #1614 on: October 19, 2017, 07:35:16 AM »
Which organisations?

Here are some to be going on with ...

The Royal Society
English Collective of Prostitutes
Nottingham Forest Supporters Club
The National Trust for England
The Sealed Knot
The Watchtower
Iron Maiden Fan Club
Flat Earth Society

 ... and before Vlad objects, they all have a "world view" - no matter how narrow.


No. The second chamber should not be appointed but elected. It should have fewer members than the House of Commons - perhaps determined regionally - with a membership which reflects the political views of the electorate.


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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #1615 on: October 19, 2017, 08:06:08 AM »
as opposed to  a house appointed by some people.
The groups and organisations so represented would select in a process guided and influenced by voting and electoral arrangements as seen fit by those groups which is why I put this:

Quote
If My proposals were developed then the second house would still be elected through the organisations and groups which they represent or have represented.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #1616 on: October 19, 2017, 08:15:28 AM »
Here are some to be going on with ...

The Royal Society
English Collective of Prostitutes
Nottingham Forest Supporters Club
The National Trust for England
The Sealed Knot
The Watchtower
Iron Maiden Fan Club
Flat Earth Society

 ... and before Vlad objects, they all have a "world view" - no matter how narrow.


No. The second chamber should not be appointed but elected. It should have fewer members than the House of Commons - perhaps determined regionally - with a membership which reflects the political views of the electorate.
There is already political representation of sorts. Since living where I do I have never been represented in the HoC apart from persons in and from other constituency.

My groups would be division into
Chamber of commerce
Chamber of service
Chamber of workers
Chamber of pensioners
Chamber of faith and ethics
Chamber of academic
Chamber of the people

each would put forward members based on as I say:
Quote
the second house would still be elected through the organisations and groups which they represent or have represented.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #1617 on: October 19, 2017, 08:20:34 AM »
Here are some to be going on with ...

The Royal Society
English Collective of Prostitutes
Nottingham Forest Supporters Club
The National Trust for England
The Sealed Knot
The Watchtower
Iron Maiden Fan Club
Flat Earth Society

Hmm The ECP and FES maybe.............The Sealed...........Knot.

Nearly Sane

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #1618 on: October 19, 2017, 08:21:22 AM »
The groups and organisations so represented would select in a process guided and influenced by voting and electoral arrangements as seen fit by those groups which is why I put this:

What if I am not in any of the groups you want to set up but you are in six? You get six votes I get none.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 08:31:47 AM by Nearly Sane »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #1619 on: October 19, 2017, 08:37:56 AM »
What if I am not in any of the groups you want to set up but you are in six? You get six votes I get none.
Those who do not get to vote in any of the other groups, if you see my list of 'Chambers' get to vote for a representative or representatives for a chamber of people I then  elected through the organisations and groups which they represent or have represented.

Nearly Sane

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #1620 on: October 19, 2017, 08:54:07 AM »
Those who do not get to vote in any of the other groups, if you see my list of 'Chambers' get to vote for a representative or representatives for a chamber of people I then  elected through the organisations and groups which they represent or have represented.

So do the others get multiple votes? Why should these people have special representation?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #1621 on: October 19, 2017, 09:08:02 AM »
So do the others get multiple votes? Why should these people have special representation?
Each seat is the voice of that community so there is a sense in which nobody ends up underrepresented. Eg No one person can be a representative for more than one group. Not perfect but what would be? And more representative than another politically elected house which ends apparently in persons not sure what they are there for. Presumably that would not be the state of affairs with 'chambers'.

The type of democracy would be chosen by the chamber or one person one vote and you choose your chamber.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #1622 on: October 19, 2017, 09:17:56 AM »
Each seat is the voice of that community so there is a sense in which nobody ends up underrepresented.
What sense is that, nonsense?
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #1623 on: October 19, 2017, 09:26:12 AM »
What sense is that, nonsense?
It's a proposal. My favoured version for a house of lords is election by lot or Sortition I believe it is referred to.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 09:30:08 AM by 'andles for forks »

Sebastian Toe

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Re: UK General Election 2017
« Reply #1624 on: October 19, 2017, 09:54:02 AM »
It's a proposal.
Wait until you can afford a decent engagement ring.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein