What are souls?

[ippy]

Nothing complicated about the idea of a soul, it's just another piece of man made superstitious nonsense; unworthy of any serious discussion.

Anything else you want to know Vlad you only need to ask.

Regards ippy

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Anything else you want to know Vlad you only need to ask.

Yes....but whom?

[jeremyp]

What are souls?

As a Christian, you must surely know what your religion says a soul is. Why don't you tell us what you think a soul is and then we can start talking about how we would show you are right or wrong.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

As a Christian, you must surely know what your religion says a soul is. Why don't you tell us what you think a soul is and then we can start talking about how we would show you are right or wrong.

The church has accrued much from its medieval phase including the popular description of the soul.
The NT on the other hand talks about resurrection.

I think the soul is the self something which is truly emergent from a mechanistic substrate.

[ippy]

The church has accrued much from its medieval phase including the popular description of the soul.
The NT on the other hand talks about resurrection.

I think the soul is the self something which is truly emergent from a mechanistic substrate.

It's just a man made idea Vlad, nothing complicated about it; it's all in the mind, just forget about it, try looking for something usefull.

ippy

[torridon]

I think the soul is the self something which is truly emergent from a mechanistic substrate.

Yes I think I'd go along with that.  It is the still popular notion that a soul is something distinct and independent and not derived from a body but inhabiting it, which lacks justification.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Yes I think I'd go along with that.  It is the still popular notion that a soul is something distinct and independent and not derived from a body but inhabiting it, which lacks justification.

But in being truly emergent it becomes independent in a certain sense.

[torridon]

But in being truly emergent it becomes independent in a certain sense.

I think you'd need to reflect on what you mean by in a certain sense, then

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I think you'd need to reflect on what you mean by in a certain sense, then

It sounds as though you are proposing some semi emergence.
The independence of the soul is one of its emergent qualities.
If you really agree that the soul is truly emergent you have to join me in the reflection yourself.

[torridon]

It sounds as though you are proposing some semi emergence.
The independence of the soul is one of its emergent qualities.
If you really agree that the soul is truly emergent you have to join me in the reflection yourself.

Sounds like you are intent on having a cake and eating it too.  I don't think something can be both truly independent and truly emergent.  Something that is emergent is dependent ultimately on its underlying substrate.

[Sriram]

Sounds like you are intent on having a cake and eating it too.  I don't think something can be both truly independent and truly emergent.  Something that is emergent is dependent ultimately on its underlying substrate.

By definition, the soul is an independent entity that occupies the body and experiences the world for its development.

If someone does not believe in any such entity as the Soul, that is a different matter.  But the Soul is not emergent from the body.

[floo]

By definition, the soul is an independent entity that occupies the body and experiences the world for its development.

If someone does not believe in any such entity as the Soul, that is a different matter.  But the Soul is not emergent from the body.

Your idea of the soul is not credible, imo.

[torridon]

By definition, the soul is an independent entity that occupies the body and experiences the world for its development.

If someone does not believe in any such entity as the Soul, that is a different matter.  But the Soul is not emergent from the body.

Definitions vary, it seems, depending on the tradition. Clearly there is a difference between your position and Vlad's here.

[ippy]

By definition, the soul is an independent entity that occupies the body and experiences the world for its development.

If someone does not believe in any such entity as the Soul, that is a different matter.  But the Soul is not emergent from the body.

Got any thoughts on ectoplasm Sriram?

ippy

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Sounds like you are intent on having a cake and eating it too.  I don't think something can be both truly independent and truly emergent.  Something that is emergent is dependent ultimately on its underlying substrate.

I'm afraid the reductionist paradigm has such a powerful hold that i find it hard to articulate the de facto difficulties it has with emergence.

It appears that you are a substrateist to rather than an organisationalist. In other words to you the nature of the neuron is more important than the organisation in explaining the nature of the emergent quality. I actually think it's worse and the emergent property is truly in its existence different and unconnected with the property of both substrate and organisation

[torridon]

I'm afraid the reductionist paradigm has such a powerful hold that i find it hard to articulate the de facto difficulties it has with emergence.

It appears that you are a substrateist to rather than an organisationalist. In other words to you the nature of the neuron is more important than the organisation in explaining the nature of the emergent quality. I actually think it's worse and the emergent property is truly in its existence different and unconnected with the property of both substrate and organisation

How do you justify that ?  Things that are emergent have to emerge from something, that is implied in the word, they cannot be unconnected.  Could you build a house without lots of building blocks ? Could we find an ecosystem that had no living things inside it ?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

How do you justify that ?  Things that are emergent have to emerge from something, that is implied in the word, they cannot be unconnected.  Could you build a house without lots of building blocks ? Could we find an ecosystem that had no living things inside it ?

Yes I have no argument about the connection.....But what is it? A wheel and a crank are joined together by a crankshaft. But what is the link? Another level of organisation?
Also how do we go from the connection to the emergent property which must be separate?

At the moment we have nothing but the emergent just appearing without adequate explanation from the previous level which does not have the property. Particularly in the case of consciousness. We are therefore in a very real sense left with something hanging there.

These, so far, are the facts of the matter and so far any complaint about it from the reductionist is from dogma.

I am not against a direct connection from the previous level but I am not convinced by your ''take it on trust'' approach.

[torridon]

Yes I have no argument about the connection.....But what is it? A wheel and a crank are joined together by a crankshaft. But what is the link? Another level of organisation?
Also how do we go from the connection to the emergent property which must be separate?

At the moment we have nothing but the emergent just appearing without adequate explanation from the previous level which does not have the property. Particularly in the case of consciousness. We are therefore in a very real sense left with something hanging there.

These, so far, are the facts of the matter and so far any complaint about it from the reductionist is from dogma.

I am not against a direct connection from the previous level but I am not convinced by your ''take it on trust'' approach.

What you see as "take it on trust" is merely a pejorative take on the principle of following the evidence.  It is better surely to witness to where the evidence is pointing rather than indulge some lesser attitude.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What you see as "take it on trust" is merely a pejorative take on the principle of following the evidence.  It is better surely to witness to where the evidence is pointing rather than indulge some lesser attitude.

I was hoping for more from you than mere priestly support for the dogma and in this case the 'mystery'.

I can see that I am going to have to look elsewhere for a 'woo' free discussion..

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

I was hoping for more from you than mere priestly support for the dogma and in this case the 'mystery'.

I can see that I am going to have to look elsewhere for a 'woo' free discussion..

If you're going to look elsewhere can I suggest that you try one of the reputable sources on emergence to avoid further howlers when you dismiss it out of hand? Stephen Johnson's book is a good place to start, but there are other primers.

[Ricky Spanish]

Where does this notion of "souls" originate?

[Sriram]

Where does this notion of "souls" originate?

It did not originate in any one place. It has been there in all parts of the world.

Since ancient times, India, Egypt, Greece, China..... have all had their ideas of an after-life  in which the essence of the person (the Self) leaves the body and migrates to another world.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

If you're going to look elsewhere can I suggest that you try one of the reputable sources on emergence to avoid further howlers when you dismiss it out of hand? Stephen Johnson's book is a good place to start, but there are other primers.

What is it I am supposed to have dismissed?
Why is this a reputable source?......and Paul Davies articles, where he identified the conflict between an understanding of emergence and your warmed over reductionism, are disreputable. Have you read that? No?

[Ricky Spanish]

So entrenched in folklore Sriram...like voodoo and shit?

[torridon]

It did not originate in any one place. It has been there in all parts of the world.

Since ancient times, India, Egypt, Greece, China..... have all had their ideas of an after-life  in which the essence of the person (the Self) leaves the body and migrates to another world.

That's not really surprising, given that all ancient societies, were, eerrm, ancient, pre-science.  I think we ought to be a bit more clued up by now.