Fatima

[Nearly Sane]

Somewhat related to the question of perception being discussed on Searching for God thread currently, I read the story below thinking that anyone who gets something from the story of Fatima that is of great importance, is perceiving the world is a way I have no understanding of.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39885741

[floo]

Hmmmmmmmmmm! The brain can create all sorts of images as I know for a fact. As I have said boringly often, for a second or two I saw what looked like the picture book version of Mary on May17th 1997. This was in a field we owned at our previous property. I saw it after an Irish couple had claimed to see it too, and been cured of their ailments. I now firmly believe I saw what I wanted to see, just as others, claimed to have seen her in our field!

[Gordon]

From an outsiders perspective, since I was never exposed to religious dogma, this kind of thing looks like no more than adherence to authority and tradition by people for whom religion, in this case RC, is an important aspect of their lifestyle: to me it does look very like created rituals (crawling on hands and knees etc) reinforced by associated learned behaviours, and in that respect it seems similar to the Muslim Haj.

Like NS, I just don't get it.

[Alan Burns]

Somewhat related to the question of perception being discussed on Searching for God thread currently, I read the story below thinking that anyone who gets something from the story of Fatima that is of great importance, is perceiving the world is a way I have no understanding of.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39885741

To people of faith, Fatima and other more modern sightings such as Medjugorje are warnings given to local communities that humanity is going in the wrong direction and we all need to turn back to God in prayer to save our souls.

[Nearly Sane]

To people of faith, Fatima and other more modern sightings such as Medjugorje are warnings given to local communities that humanity is going in the wrong direction and we all need to turn back to God in prayer to save our souls.

of course, that isn't actually true, is it, Alan? You mean people of your faith. There are millions of 'people of faith' that disagree with you about that but you seem forced due to possibly your perception to misrepresent facts.

[Gordon]

To people of faith, Fatima and other more modern sightings such as Medjugorje are warnings given to local communities that humanity is going in the wrong direction and we all need to turn back to God in prayer to save our souls.

So people whose reason isn't influenced by religious faith don't get warned? Moreover, isn't it odd that these 'warnings' seem ring-fenced to include specific Christians: in this case those who buy into the RC tradition, where there are many Christians of other stripes and of course non-Christian theists. Seems then 'God's' warning is aimed at a selective minority.

Perhaps, as I noted earlier, you're falling for fallacious arguments from authority, tradition and personal incredulity since presumably 'God' could arrange for warnings that aren't dependent on being an RC who subscribes to this type of ritual. Tell me, do you also accept the so-called 'Miracle of the Sun' that allegedly happened here a few months later in 1917?   

[Anchorman]

Strange that many of the 'marian' appearances show a flawless, white skinned girl - in some cases with blond hair - wearing spotless white and blue robes - when the real Mary was at best an olive skinned teenager of modest means when she gave birth to Christ Jesus, her first - but not only - child.

[Nearly Sane]

Strange that many of the 'marian' appearances show a flawless, white skinned girl - in some cases with blond hair - wearing spotless white and blue robes - when the real Mary was at best an olive skinned teenager of modest means when she gave birth to Christ Jesus, her first - but not only - child.

Come now, Anchorman, you must know that on her assumption body and soul into heaven (I used to look out for her when I went to Heaven nightclub in the 80s) she went through the Holy Spa and Skin Wash

[Nearly Sane]

You also think that an all omnipotent being might communicate in a slightly more  sensible format than a bad 80s video. Maybe Mary was at Heaven after all.

[Anchorman]

Probably screaming insults at the cheurivic images we've made of her! As a Christian, yes, she was special - singled out for a unique, unrepeatable role, and her actions are honoured to this day. But like millions of other Christians, she is dead, and beyond our reach. As for 'queen of heaven'? Nope. There is a King - One king - and no vacancies. We can kick titles and heirarchies into oblivion when we arrivwe. God has no grandchildren.

[Robbie]

I don't know very much about Fatima (did work with someone who was a Medjugoreje devotee) & have never had a 'religious experience', wouldn't want one, i'd think I was more batty than ever. I might have felt that way when young, don't know, never did.

However it seems to me that many people do want that and enjoy it, also being together with others all experiencing the same. Toronto blessing and other charismania is similar. They get something out of it.

The Bible says somewhere (my words) that we should not look for signs and wonders to support our faith & that is my belief.

[Nearly Sane]

I don't know very much about Fatima (did work with someone who was a Medjugoreje devotee) & have never had a 'religious experience', wouldn't want one, i'd think I was more batty than ever. I might have felt that way when young, don't know, never did.

However it seems to me that many people do want that and enjoy it, also being together with others all experiencing the same. Toronto blessing and other charismania is similar. They get something out of it.

The Bible says somewhere (my words) that we should not look for signs and wonders to support our faith & that is my belief.

If AB or the Catholic Church was saying isn't it nice to be happy clappy  together, then I would nod, and say if that's what gets you by, off you go and do what you want. That isn't the case.

[floo]

Strange that many of the 'marian' appearances show a flawless, white skinned girl - in some cases with blond hair - wearing spotless white and blue robes - when the real Mary was at best an olive skinned teenager of modest means when she gave birth to Christ Jesus, her first - but not only - child.

Just like that image I had for a few seconds. When, as you point out, Mary would have been of Middle Eastern appearance, just like her son would have been too, and not the blonde hair, blue eyed Caucasian guy of portraits.

[Robbie]

Yes undoubtedly there's a lot more to it NS. All seems dodgy to me.

[wigginhall]

So two of the children died in the 1918 flu epidemic; ah well, they got to heaven faster that way, while the third had to endure in this vale of tears for another 80 years, poor thing.

[Nearly Sane]

"Secret messages, apocalyptic countdowns, cloak-and-dagger intrigue within the highest echelons of the Vatican: not even Hollywood could ask for better material than this"


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Secrets_of_Fátima

[wigginhall]

It's crying out for Dan Brown.

[Nearly Sane]

It's crying out for Dan Brown.

The RC church are masters at this sort of stuff

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_coronation

[Gordon]

To me, not having grown up with this sort of ritualised stuff, this adornment of statues via papal authority seems a lot like when my daughters dressed up Barbi dolls - it has a simplistic and child-like dimension to it.

Perhaps it works by focusing attention on the ritual and the objects involved, and the authority and tradition underpinning all this, so as to not spend time thinking about whether all these stories of divine revelations and secret messages make any real sense.   

[wigginhall]

The RC church are masters at this sort of stuff

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_coronation

I remember being in France a few years ago, and we had a craze for looking for black madonnas, and it was fun chasing them  up, and some of them were quite redolent images, not particularly of Christian ideas, but primitive  mana.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocamadour

[Nearly Sane]

To me, not having grown up with this sort of ritualised stuff, this adornment of statues via papal authority seems a lot like when my daughters dressed up Barbi dolls - it has a simplistic and child-like dimension to it.

Perhaps it works by focusing attention on the ritual and the objects involved, and the authority and tradition underpinning all this, so as to not spend time thinking about whether all these stories of divine revelations and secret messages make any real sense.

On the subject of dressing up, then there is the Child of Prague statue.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_Jesus_of_Prague

[Anchorman]

The RC church are masters at this sort of stuff

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_coronation

Pity it has no connection with Scripture or, for that matter, the fundamental doctrines of the Christian Faith.

[floo]

Jesus didn't appear to put his mother on a pedestal in the way the Catholic Church does. In fact he seemed rather dismissive of her and his family.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

From an outsiders perspective, since I was never exposed to religious dogma,

How would you deflect a charge of being brainwashed into atheism from an early age?

[Nearly Sane]

How would you deflect a charge of being brainwashed into atheism from an early age?

You charge people with being brainwashed? What very odd phrasing!

And combined with a very odd idea that not being told something is true is brainwashing. I was therefore brainwashed into not having an opinion on Stravinsky at an early age.