Fatima

[ippy]

Faith is an extraordinary thing. It puts us in touch with the subtle forces that work from within us.

How come none of you are able to give a rational description of how these 'subtle forces' work  and none of those that relate to these 'subtle forces' seem able to tell how they managed to acquired the knowledge they claim to have about these 'subtle forces'? An email, a phone call or perhaps a special messinger delivery?

ippy

[Sriram]

How come none of you are able to give a rational description of how these 'subtle forces' work  and none of those that relate to these 'subtle forces' seem able to tell how they managed to acquired the knowledge they claim to have about these 'subtle forces'? An email, a phone call or perhaps a special messinger delivery?

ippy

Maybe because it goes beyond rationality!   

[torridon]

Logic is neither here nor there. We humans try to understand things based on logic. But the world does not function on logic.

I think 'the world' does function on logic, but humans did not evolve to be coldly logical. Our behaviours, motivated through the limbic system, driven by emotion rather than logic, are aimed at satisfying our desires rather than revealing truth, indeed it seems we often prefer to nurture our own alternate facts.  Learning to be logical is a slow development process; logic brings no instant gratification.

[Sassy]

Hmmmmmmmmmm! The brain can create all sorts of images as I know for a fact. As I have said boringly often, for a second or two I saw what looked like the picture book version of Mary on May17th 1997. This was in a field we owned at our previous property. I saw it after an Irish couple had claimed to see it too, and been cured of their ailments. I now firmly believe I saw what I wanted to see, just as others, claimed to have seen her in our field!

I suppose like all good deceptions the truth can make things clearer.
Mary has no standing of importance in that she is NOT the mother of God for God is not born nor created.
God is the only eternal immortal.King James Bible
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

There is one God and he does not share that GLORY of his with anyone.  Isaiah 42:8
   I am the Lord; that is My name. And My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise to graven images.
Christ said: "My words were Spirit and they are life." 
We can see the different ways men have let untruths creep in and take over.
But Christ is the Son of God and Mary is a human being and only the Roman Catholic Church made her into something she is not. Spirit and Truth are required of true believers.

[floo]

Both Jesus and Mary were humans, no god involved, imo.

[Enki]

Maybe because it goes beyond rationality!   

Or maybe it is just different to rationality, and at times tends to ignore or contradict rationality.

[Sriram]

Or maybe it is just different to rationality, and at times tends to ignore or contradict rationality.

Maybe some of it contradicts rationality.

Rationality is just one human attribute. The universe does not have to fit into it.

[ippy]

Maybe because it goes beyond rationality!   

Thank you Sriram.

ippy

[ippy]

I suppose like all good deceptions the truth can make things clearer.
Mary has no standing of importance in that she is NOT the mother of God for God is not born nor created.
God is the only eternal immortal.King James Bible
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

There is one God and he does not share that GLORY of his with anyone.  Isaiah 42:8
   I am the Lord; that is My name. And My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise to graven images.
Christ said: "My words were Spirit and they are life." 
We can see the different ways men have let untruths creep in and take over.
But Christ is the Son of God and Mary is a human being and only the Roman Catholic Church made her into something she is not. Spirit and Truth are required of true believers.

Sass you reminded me of when I was a child; I can remember saying my dad's three times stronger than anything you say your dad is, so there.

Can you see the parallels?

It's all man made Sass.

ippy

[Sriram]

Meanwhile in Russia ....... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-40062807

Maybe Putin is not such an ogre that he is made out to be, after all!  For a ex-KGB chief he seems pretty sensitive!!

[Sriram]

Sass you reminded me of when I was a child; I can remember saying my dad's three times stronger than anything you say your dad is, so there.

Can you see the parallels?

It's all man made Sass.

ippy

I agree...all scriptures and religious texts are man made.  But they are like scientific models that we humans create to understand the world.

The models are not real in themselves but in some sense (often vaguely) they represent reality. Our scriptures and deities are the same. 

[torridon]

I agree...all scriptures and religious texts are man made.  But they are like scientific models that we humans create to understand the world.

The models are not real in themselves but in some sense (often vaguely) represent reality. Our scriptures and deities are the same.

I'd go along with that but would add that scientific models represent a step change towards objective understanding whereas religious beliefs persist because of their subjective value to individuals.  There is no human-centric gratification in scientific theories.

[Sriram]

I'd go along with that but would add that scientific models represent a step change towards objective understanding whereas religious beliefs persist because of their subjective value to individuals.  There is no human-centric gratification in scientific theories.

Objective understanding is of little significance in living our lives. A bird flies with no objective 'understanding' of flight what so ever.

We happen to have developed certain abilities of objective understanding because of which the 'need to understand' keeps projecting itself. It can be useful sometimes, but that does not mean that, if we cannot understand something objectively it is of no significance. 

In fact, trying to understand something objectively can often have a regressive effect on our subjective experiences. It can even be a barrier. 

Instead of dismissing subjective aspects as imaginary and unimportant, the right way is to integrate both the subjective and objective aspects of ourselves. That is what Yoga does......unite the two seemingly separate aspects of ourselves.

[Sassy]

Sass you reminded me of when I was a child; I can remember saying my dad's three times stronger than anything you say your dad is, so there.

Can you see the parallels?

It's all man made Sass.

ippy

Not really, Ippy.
Man is Gods creation not vice versa.
Jesus Father would be stronger than yours or mine.

[ekim]

Maybe Putin is not such an ogre that he is made out to be, after all!  For a ex-KGB chief he seems pretty sensitive!!

I'm a bit more sceptical.  Russia plays politics like a chess game.  Bishops can be valuable assets and can also be sacrificed in the cause of winning.

[Enki]

Maybe some of it contradicts rationality.

Rationality is just one human attribute. The universe does not have to fit into it.

Sorry for not replying before, but I was unable to log on to this site for several hours, an irritation which applies on a near daily basis, by the way.

No problem with your first sentence. We seem to be in agreement.

We seem to be in agreement also on your second sentence. It seems that human beings are driven, sometimes irrationally, by their emotions, instincts and their personal experiences at least as much as by a considered rational approach.

On the subject of your third sentence, that the universe does not have to fit into rationality, I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you mean that in some way the universe is not rational, I find that is an extremely vague conjecture and  somewhat devoid of meaning as I find it difficult to apply rationality to such a thing as a universe.  However our explanations regarding how the universe functions rely heavily on a rational approach rather than a faith approach and this approach has been overwhelmingly justified by events, predictions and evidence to give the most consistent successful description of our universe within the limits of our knowledge thus far.

[ippy]

Not really, Ippy.
Man is Gods creation not vice versa.
Jesus Father would be stronger than yours or mine.

And the evidence?

ippy

[Sriram]

Sorry for not replying before, but I was unable to log on to this site for several hours, an irritation which applies on a near daily basis, by the way.

No problem with your first sentence. We seem to be in agreement.

We seem to be in agreement also on your second sentence. It seems that human beings are driven, sometimes irrationally, by their emotions, instincts and their personal experiences at least as much as by a considered rational approach.

On the subject of your third sentence, that the universe does not have to fit into rationality, I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you mean that in some way the universe is not rational, I find that is an extremely vague conjecture and  somewhat devoid of meaning as I find it difficult to apply rationality to such a thing as a universe.  However our explanations regarding how the universe functions rely heavily on a rational approach rather than a faith approach and this approach has been overwhelmingly justified by events, predictions and evidence to give the most consistent successful description of our universe within the limits of our knowledge thus far.

enki,

The Universe is one thing and our perception of it is another thing.  We should not confuse the two.

We have evolved the faculty of rationality for our own survival. It is a product of our brain structure, neural connections, DNA and our cultural environment. It has nothing to do with the way the Universe is structured, the stars and galaxies, elementary particles and so on.

We live on a tiny little planet somewhere and  perceive the world through our rational mind and think it functions in a certain way.  It is our perception. We should not imagine that the Universe would necessarily be limited to our perception of it.

That is what I meant by saying that the world need not  fit into our rational ideas.   

We are basically emotional beings... we feel and experience life. Rational understanding of the world is of no relevance to any living being. All life is experiential from birth to procreation to death. Animals and birds have lived for millions of years with no rational understanding of their lives. We can too.

We humans just happen to have this rational faculty. So, to imagine that the Universe will somehow fit in completely into our rationality is to limit the Universe.

[Enki]

enki,

The Universe is one thing and our perception of it is another thing.  We should not confuse the two.

Which of course, I don't. That is why I suggested that the idea of rationality being applied to the universe is a somewhat meaningless concept.

We have evolved the faculty of rationality for our own survival. It is a product of our brain structure, neural connections, DNA and our cultural environment. It has nothing to do with the way the Universe is structured, the stars and galaxies, elementary particles and so on.

 We have evolved many qualities in order to survive, Sriram, rationality being only one of them. However it is a very useful tool in our armoury for helping to describe and explain how the universe functions. I would submit that the New Caledonian crow, for instance, shows a degree of rationality in solving physical problems appertaining to how things work. In this way it has evolved to better survive. We are much, much further down this road, and are far more able to manipulate and understand how the universe works, giving us, amongst other qualities, the potential of more successful survival mechanisms.

We live on a tiny little planet somewhere and  perceive the world through our rational mind and think it functions in a certain way.  It is our perception. We should not imagine that the Universe would necessarily be limited to our perception of it.

 Of course the universe is not necessarily limited to our perception of it, there is so much more we do not know or understand. However our understanding is steadily progressing, not least because of our ability to rationalise.

That is what I meant by saying that the world need not  fit into our rational ideas.

No problem, except that our rational ideas, when compared with faith ideas, have had much more success in descibing and explaining the universe as is.

We are basically emotional beings... we feel and experience life. Rational understanding of the world is of no relevance to any living being. All life is experiential from birth to procreation to death. Animals and birds have lived for millions of years with no rational understanding of their lives. We can too.

We humans just happen to have this rational faculty. So, to imagine that the Universe will somehow fit in completely into our rationality is to limit the Universe.

I have already alluded to this, by saying that emotions, instincts and personal experience tend to fashion our ideas.These are significant qualities which enable us to survive. However our rational qualities (which, for instance, enables us to weigh evidence, think logically, and be aware that our own experience or emotions can be of limited value) allied to our natural curiosity, has a much better chance of understanding the universe and expanding our knowledge of it. Far from being a limiting factor, it has a much greater potential for revealing the universe in which we live.

[Sriram]

Which of course, I don't. That is why I suggested that the idea of rationality being applied to the universe is a somewhat meaningless concept.

 We have evolved many qualities in order to survive, Sriram, rationality being only one of them. However it is a very useful tool in our armoury for helping to describe and explain how the universe functions. I would submit that the New Caledonian crow, for instance, shows a degree of rationality in solving physical problems appertaining to how things work. In this way it has evolved to better survive. We are much, much further down this road, and are far more able to manipulate and understand how the universe works, giving us, amongst other qualities, the potential of more successful survival mechanisms.

 Of course the universe is not necessarily limited to our perception of it, there is so much more we do not know or understand. However our understanding is steadily progressing, not least because of our ability to rationalise.


No problem, except that our rational ideas, when compared with faith ideas, have had much more success in descibing and explaining the universe as is.

I have already alluded to this, by saying that emotions, instincts and personal experience tend to fashion our ideas.These are significant qualities which enable us to survive. However our rational qualities (which, for instance, enables us to weigh evidence, think logically, and be aware that our own experience or emotions can be of limited value) allied to our natural curiosity, has a much better chance of understanding the universe and expanding our knowledge of it. Far from being a limiting factor, it has a much greater potential for revealing the universe in which we live.

enki,

I think you underestimate the role and power of Faith.

Most people can live without understanding atoms, DNA, cosmos, evolution and everything else. They can also live without most of the conveniences we have today. But they cannot live without Faith.

[Nearly Sane]

enki,

I think you underestimate the role and power of Faith.

Most people can live without understanding atoms, DNA, cosmos, evolution and everything else. They can also live without most of the conveniences we have today. But they cannot live without Faith.

What do you mean by faith?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

But they cannot live without Faith.

What is this "Faith" that you think I cannot live without?

I don't incidentally underestimate the power of dogmatic faith either - the wars, misery and suffering it's caused testify to that, presumably because (unlike other kinds of guessing) people will die and kill for it.

[Gordon]

But they cannot live without Faith.

Why do you mean by 'faith'?

If you mean something akin to religious faith then I seem to be surviving quite well despite having none!

[Sriram]

I think we have discussed this before.

Faith is born of the fact that we humans are never really satisfied or even comfortable with mundane existence. We enjoy life to a large extent but always have this faint suspicion that there is something more to life. The temporal nature of our lives is often difficult to integrate into our lives.

Most people suspect that there is some purpose, meaning and guiding force that directs our lives. This gives rise to a simple 'there is something behind all this' feeling. 

It is not just about incredulity or wonder. It is about sensing a pattern to life and about unseen forces that direct our life. 

Based on these suspicions, some people go deeper into their mental states and identify those parts of the mind and consciousness that work from behind the scenes.  Such people are the mystics.

These mystics have confirmed understanding of such subtle inner and powerful forces, but even they cannot actually pin it down in any objective sense. It therefore remains Faith to a large degree even for them. 

Some people do try to pin down such forces and even harness and use these powerful forces to their advantage. These are the tantriks or black magic people. But it never works and is always dysfunctional and regressive.

Some of the mystics in turn teach such matters to younger generations and their word is taken on faith.  They then become the prophets and spiritual leaders. Religious systems get created to help people integrate their daily lives in line with such forces. 

So...Faith is of two kinds. One that is born of direct knowledge of subtle forces and another that is based on teachings of others (but which the normal people can also discern  to an extent).

We today know that the Unconscious mind is behind many decisions that we believe we take consciously. This itself could be one factor contributing to such faith.

[torridon]

Faith is born of the fact that we humans are never really satisfied or even comfortable with mundane existence. We enjoy life to a large extent but always have this faint suspicion that there is something more to life. The temporal nature of our lives is often difficult to integrate into our lives.

Most people suspect that there is some purpose, meaning and guiding force that directs our lives. This gives rise to a simple 'there is something behind all this' feeling. 

It is not just about incredulity or wonder. It is about sensing a pattern to life and about unseen forces that direct our life.... 

That could equally well describe 'superstition', an irrational belief in hidden forces at work; and it could equally well describe 'agent detection', an evolved cognitive bias leading us to suspect hidden agency when there is none.  'Faith' then becomes the elevation and indulgence of our biases in preference to attempting to eliminate bias in order to be able to think clearly.