Fatima

[Nearly Sane]

It would appear then, Sriram, that not only do I live without faith but I am very glad that I live without it.

[floo]

Whilst some people need to have a faith to give them something which appears to be above and beyond themselves, whilst others are quite content to live in the here and now without it.

[Alan Burns]

Meanwhile in Russia ....... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-40062807

Thank you for showing this very poignant article.

Many people dismiss the apparitions of the virgin Mary as meaningless, but one of the common calls from these apparitions was to pray for the conversion of Russia.  In my childhood and early adult life I was aware of several rosary groups who would meet up regularly in answer to these apparitions and dedicate their rosary for this cause.  In the days of Khrushchev one could never have imagined that within my lifetime, Leningrad would be renamed back to St Petersburg, the queues to venerate Lenin's tomb would be replaced by queues to venerate the relic of a Christian saint, and the president of Russia himself would be there, making the sign of the cross in front of the saint's relic.

[Nearly Sane]

Thank you for showing this very poignant article.

Many people dismiss the apparitions of the virgin Mary as meaningless, but one of the common calls from these apparitions was to pray for the conversion of Russia.  In my childhood and early adult life I was aware of several rosary groups who would meet up regularly in answer to these apparitions and dedicate their rosary for this cause.  In the days of Khrushchev one could never have imagined that within my lifetime, Leningrad would be renamed back to St Petersburg, the queues to venerate Lenin's tomb would be replaced by queues to venerate the relic of a Christian saint, and the president of Russia himself would be there, making the sign of the cross in front of the saint's relic.

You venerate a murderer

[floo]

Thank you for showing this very poignant article.

Many people dismiss the apparitions of the virgin Mary as meaningless, but one of the common calls from these apparitions was to pray for the conversion of Russia.  In my childhood and early adult life I was aware of several rosary groups who would meet up regularly in answer to these apparitions and dedicate their rosary for this cause.  In the days of Khrushchev one could never have imagined that within my lifetime, Leningrad would be renamed back to St Petersburg, the queues to venerate Lenin's tomb would be replaced by queues to venerate the relic of a Christian saint, and the president of Russia himself would be there, making the sign of the cross in front of the saint's relic.

And what good has any of that silly nonsense done for Russia, none whatsoever!

[Alan Burns]

And what good has any of that silly nonsense done for Russia, none whatsoever!

I would say that many souls have been saved for those who returned to their faith.

[Nearly Sane]

I would say that many souls have been saved for those who returned to their faith.

And anyone murdered by Putin you dance in their grave.

[Anchorman]

Thank you for showing this very poignant article.

Many people dismiss the apparitions of the virgin Mary as meaningless, but one of the common calls from these apparitions was to pray for the conversion of Russia.  In my childhood and early adult life I was aware of several rosary groups who would meet up regularly in answer to these apparitions and dedicate their rosary for this cause.  In the days of Khrushchev one could never have imagined that within my lifetime, Leningrad would be renamed back to St Petersburg, the queues to venerate Lenin's tomb would be replaced by queues to venerate the relic of a Christian saint, and the president of Russia himself would be there, making the sign of the cross in front of the saint's relic.

-
Equally, many people will dismiss Marianism and the Rosery as anti-Scriptural, and deplore the association of the Russian Church with the inhuman policies of Putin, who claims to be a Christian, but apart from lip service, shows himself to be the opposite.
Strange answer to 'prayer'. that.

[Sriram]

That could equally well describe 'superstition', an irrational belief in hidden forces at work; and it could equally well describe 'agent detection', an evolved cognitive bias leading us to suspect hidden agency when there is none.  'Faith' then becomes the elevation and indulgence of our biases in preference to attempting to eliminate bias in order to be able to think clearly.

torridon,

Scientists have sufficiently established that the Unconscious mind functions in mysterious  ways and influences our lives every day....though we are completely unaware of it.  Many scientists and psychologists have commented on how huge and powerful the unconscious part of our mind is...and yet remains largely unknown.  Like a iceberg with most of it hidden below the surface.

This simple fact is itself sufficient for us to realize why people believe that there are unseen forces working within our selves that direct our destiny. There could be many more such subtle issues that we still have no knowledge of.

So, it is a perfectly valid impression. I don't know why you keep calling it irrational?  It is actually there!

A majority of the people have an ability to detect or discern such hidden forces and patterns. Some people may not be able to. Fine!   But that is no reason why the minority should dismiss the majority as irrational or biased.   

[torridon]

torridon,

Scientists have sufficiently established that the Unconscious mind functions in mysterious  ways and influences our lives every day....though we are completely unaware of it.  Many scientists and psychologists have commented on how huge and powerful the unconscious part of our mind is...and yet remains largely unknown.  Like a iceberg with most of it hidden below the surface.

This simple fact is itself sufficient for us to realize why people believe that there are unseen forces working within our selves that direct our destiny. There could be many more such subtle issues that we still have no knowledge of.

So, it is a perfectly valid impression. I don't know why you keep calling it irrational?  It is actually there!

A majority of the people have an ability to detect or discern such hidden forces and patterns. Some people may not be able to. Fine!   But that is no reason why the minority should dismiss the majority as irrational or biased.

Maybe 'irrational' is valid where people are believing in unseen external forces for which there is no objective evidence acting.  Unseen forces within us would be different, after all, we have some insight into unconscious mind as the contents do emerge into consciousness from time to time.  Conscious workspace is like a small precious resource that can accommodate only what is currently important, but that is not to say that other aspects of our deeper selves do not get an airing as and when; although some things get repressed and never get to see the light of day, as Freud showed.

[Sriram]

Maybe 'irrational' is valid where people are believing in unseen external forces for which there is no objective evidence acting.  Unseen forces within us would be different, after all, we have some insight into unconscious mind as the contents do emerge into consciousness from time to time.  Conscious workspace is like a small precious resource that can accommodate only what is currently important, but that is not to say that other aspects of our deeper selves do not get an airing as and when; although some things get repressed and never get to see the light of day, as Freud showed.

You still think that the Unconscious mind is just a storehouse of repressed memories?!!!    Well....!

[torridon]

I would say that many souls have been saved for those who returned to their faith.

More bonkers beliefs from the baffling Burns. 

Even if such things as 'souls' do exist despite the lack of any evidence and any rationale and even if said souls needing saving from some undefined thing and even if there were a god despite the lack of any evidence and any rationale that could do this saving then this god would save all the souls that needed rescuing not just those that had happened upon some means to somehow believe in souls that lacked of any evidence and any rationale that could be saved from something undefined by a god that lacked any evidence or rationale leaving all others out in the cold.

It must take years of practice to get into such a monstrous muddle.

[Sassy]

And the evidence?

ippy

Gods still around my dad isn't is yours?
Eventually ours will be forgotten but God never will...

[torridon]

You still think that the Unconscious mind is just a storehouse of repressed memories?!!!    Well....!

There's no 'just' about it. Some people might have repressed memories, nothing controversial in that.  Unconscious mind is all mind that is not currently conscious.  Think of consciousness as a system of prioritisation, of giving heightened attention to issues that matter right now.  If there is a lion creeping up on you you really need to pay undivided attention to that, but we don't need to pay full attention to constant background noises like the ticking of a clock.  In the middle of your biology exam you might need to have knowledge about cell membranes in conscious mind, but there is no point in filling that precious and limited space with remembered knowledge of childhood holidays.  There's nothing spooky about unconscious mind, it is a process of prioritisation.

[floo]

Gods still around my dad isn't is yours?
Eventually ours will be forgotten but God never will...

In your opinion!

[Alan Burns]

More bonkers beliefs from the baffling Burns. 

Even if such things as 'souls' do exist despite the lack of any evidence and any rationale and even if said souls needing saving from some undefined thing and even if there were a god despite the lack of any evidence and any rationale that could do this saving then this god would save all the souls that needed rescuing not just those that had happened upon some means to somehow believe in souls that lacked of any evidence and any rationale that could be saved from something undefined by a god that lacked any evidence or rationale leaving all others out in the cold.

It must take years of practice to get into such a monstrous muddle.

It is all explained in the Christian Bible.

And congratulations on composing the longest sentence I have come across on this forum (and not one comma!). 

[torridon]

It is all explained in the Christian Bible.

And congratulations on composing the longest sentence I have come across on this forum (and not one comma!). 

And congratulations on composing the baldest evasion I have come across on this forum (and not one scintilla of a hint of any real justification)

[Shaker]

It is all explained in the Christian Bible.

No it isn't.

A great deal is baldly asserted in the "Christian Bible" (what's that? Is that the Old Testament plus the New Testament, or just the New Testament, or does it include the Deuterocanonical/Apocryphal books with both or either, or what? Because I have some pertinent questions relating to those answers); explanation is a very different thing altogether.

Assertion of opinion isn't explanation; but I fear it's a bit late in the day for you to comprehend that, along with a very great deal else.

Feel free to blithely ignore these direct questions posed to you personally; I mean, that's your usual procedure, isn't it? Look how long it's taking you to answer a repeated but sublimely simple question from bluehillside, for example. So it goes: slimily dishonest to the last.

Meh: I expect no better.

[ippy]

Gods still around my dad isn't is yours?
Eventually ours will be forgotten but God never will...

Again Sass, how do you know this god idea, granted it does exist inside your head, really exist? You seem unable to come up with anything of merit.

Up to now you haven't managed to come up with anything that would or could substantiate/attribute any reality into this wishful thinking god idea of yours.

I'm sure you mean well but can't you see it's a bit of a rubbish not very useful idea Sass?

ippy

[floo]

I was watching a drama the other night where one of the characters was collecting money to send a person to Lourdes for healing. Would anyone on this forum donate money that purpose? I think it much better to give money towards medical research, far more effective, imo.

[Sebastian Toe]

I was watching drama the other night where one of the characters was collecting money to send a person to Lourdes for healing. Would anyone on this forum donate money that purpose?

I might contribute to send you to be cured of your acute curmudgeonitis!
 

[Harrowby Hall]

I was watching a drama the other night where one of the characters was collecting money to send a person to Lourdes for healing. Would anyone on this forum donate money that purpose? I think it much better to give money towards medical research, far more effective, imo.

I'm not saying that I would willingly donate money specifically to send a person to Lourdes for a cure - but I could (just) imagine donating money for someone - possibly terminally ill - who wishes to visit Lourdes. They would, after all, benefit from a peaceful holiday in a beautiful area in the French Pyrenees.

[Rhiannon]

I agree with HH. If it would help to bring peace to someone who was dying, why not?

[Bubbles]

I'm not saying that I would willingly donate money specifically to send a person to Lourdes for a cure - but I could (just) imagine donating money for someone - possibly terminally ill - who wishes to visit Lourdes. They would, after all, benefit from a peaceful holiday in a beautiful area in the French Pyrenees.

Yes it depends how it's put.

We are all terminal in a way, it's just a matter of when, so I think fulfilling your dreams matters anyway, more so if you don't have much time.

If their faith makes them want to see it as a sort of bucket list pilgrimage, why not?

I would if I knew the person concerned and they wanted to see it.

[Robbie]

So would I.
No-one's ever asked me to contribute to a Lourdes pilgrimage though, nor likely to.

I know two doctors who accompanied sick children to Lourdes, one is a Catholic and has done it a few times & the other one isn't a Catholic. They both enjoyed it and said the kids loved it!