Etiquette for non muslims

[Udayana]

Even as a grizzled old atheist I'd say that, in my experience anyway, the fasting associated with Ramadan is a personal commitment that rarely intrudes into the lives of those not directly involved, and that to me it seems far less intrusive than the promotion of other religions in the public arena. As far as I'm aware only relatively fit people are required to voluntarily fast for this time-limited period, so I'm not sure the risks are any worse than the habitual excessive consumption of food.

If fact, I'm struggling to think of a single occasion when I've been even slightly inconvenienced by the observance of Ramadan by others - so I'm quite happy to respect the position of those who do adhere to the Ramadan ritual even though it makes no sense to me.

Depends how you view these things. To me it seems quite probable that up to 1.6B people together starving themselves, even not taking liquids, and (often) binge eating every day for a month each year has a profound negative effect, especially on mental health, even though I am not personally inconvenienced.

Along similar lines, I am not personally inconvenienced by people drinking or drugging themselves into a stupor or even death, but it is hardly something to be encouraged. 

[Robbie]

Just reading again that article you posted sririam, it was light and true to life for this country.

[Gordon]

Depends how you view these things. To me it seems quite probable that up to 1.6B people together starving themselves, even not taking liquids, and (often) binge eating every day for a month each year has a profound negative effect, especially on mental health, even though I am not personally inconvenienced.

I don't think this is a sensible thing to do either but I'm not aware that Ramadan arrangements result in an upsurge of related health problems: happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

Along similar lines, I am not personally inconvenienced by people drinking or drugging themselves into a stupor or even death, but it is hardly something to be encouraged.

It could be argued though that these activities can, and do, place demands on the social services funded by the taxpayer and can also negatively impact on the individuals involved (and/or their significant others).

[Nearly Sane]

Following on from the issue sensibly raised by JP, I was reminded that I had read something on it sometime ago, so here it is.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19199411

[Robbie]

Oooh very unpleasant. I follow the Egyptian scholars on this.
You'd have to be pretty damn devout to fast for so long in constant sunshine,I bet most don't.

[trippymonkey]

I gather you can donate money if you're too ill to self-torture.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

Hi everyone,

Here is a guide for non muslims on Ramadan etiquette.

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/04/us/ramadan-non-muslims-etiquette-guide/index.html

Cheers.

Sriram

Other people fast, not just Muslims. What does annoy me is that in my working experience Muslims make a huge fuss of fasting, and want everybody to know that they are fasting, whilst others (Christians, Hindus, Sikhs etc) just get on with it.

[Robbie]

My experience has been quite opposite, strange isn't it.Not opposite about other faiths but about Muslims making a fuss. It was the same with parents of kids that mine were friendly with at school, it didn't come up unless there was a good reason. Just shows people are different, some noisier about personal things.

Went out with colleagues once,including Muslims, to middle Eastern restaurant quite late one night during Ramadan, not relevant but I just remembered it & Ramadan was briefly mentioned. The restaurant had several people there breaking their fast and knew how to cater for them. A good memory about eighteen years ago.

[Sriram]

Other people fast, not just Muslims. What does annoy me is that in my working experience Muslims make a huge fuss of fasting, and want everybody to know that they are fasting, whilst others (Christians, Hindus, Sikhs etc) just get on with it.

Yes....most orthodox Hindus skip one meal every week (normally on Thursdays) and full day fasting every eleventh day (Ekadasi) of the lunar cycle (about once in 15 days).

Also, fasting (Upavas) or eating only fruits (vrata) is common during festivals and religious ceremonies. These are a form of sacrifice and  self discipline which brings out our inner divinity.

[Gordon]

Moderator:

Can I just remind everyone that this thread is on the Muslim Board and that discussions specifically about Christianity should take place elsewhere.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Hi everyone,

Here is a guide for non muslims on Ramadan etiquette.

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/04/us/ramadan-non-muslims-etiquette-guide/index.html

Cheers.

Sriram

That's pretty spot on in my experience.

Ramadan Mubarak all.

So many generalisations - where to start. It's only a month - unless you are soft and weak a month of fasting if you are in generally fairly good health is no big deal, even during the summer. Obesity is a bigger problem for society. For those concerned about self-abuse and health problems - thanks for your concern but maybe try fasting for a month and then you can speak from experience or knowledge - it's not that difficult and if it is Muslims choose not to fast - I know relatives who aren't fasting due to health issues, e.g. acid reflux making it painful to fast. If Muslims are fasting when it is harmful to their health - they shouldn't be.

I have done kung fu training, gone for a 2 mile run, manned the food stall at the school Fun Day all during the summer fasts. I did a 2.5 minute plank and some push-ups this morning before having a shower.

My 12 year old daughter has chosen to give up her weekly 8.5 hrs of club swim practice and her clarinet lessons during Ramadan - is that considered kicking up a fuss? But both of us were quite chuffed at the muscle definition on our stomachs as our bodies have been breaking down fat for energy over the last 3 days - not the reason we fast during Ramadan but a flat stomach at is an added bonus. Of course when Ramadan is over our stomach muscles soon get covered up again as we go back to eating normally.

I agree the first couple of days of fasting can be hard as your body adjusts to broken sleep by getting up at 2.30am to eat something before the fast starts around 3am, but having a nap after work and going to bed by about 10.30pm helps. Muslims often take a few days off work during Ramadan but working is also a good distraction from thinking about food. In my case it's also caffeine withdrawal headaches for the first 2 days but the NHS website has advice on fasting during Ramadan and there are no health issues if you are in generally good health.
http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Healthyramadan/Pages/fastingandhealth.aspx

I went to my non-Muslim cousin's son's 1st birthday party yesterday with my kids - the 3 of us were fasting and it was a lunch. We had a laugh, chatted to people while they ate and were lucky enough to be given a packed takeaway of the lunch to break fast with later. So we're not eating anything different from non-Muslims when we break fast. Yes I had to explain to a couple of people who kept asking me to go eat that I couldn't because I was fasting - if that is kicking up a fuss, oh well. The people who were there didn't seem to mind and asked questions while continuing to eat. 

Muslims feel they get a lot of benefit from Ramadan. It's one month - get over it.

[Gordon]

Moderator:

There is obviously something of interest here, Jim and Ad, so I'll split off your posts on this into a thread that I'll put in R&E and you can continue there.

Done that: the posts moved from here are now here, where discussion on the Christian aspect of fasting and related matters can be continued.

http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=13975.msg675818#new

[trippymonkey]

G
What kind of Heaven can one buy into?

[Udayana]

That's pretty spot on in my experience.

Ramadan Mubarak all.

So many generalisations - where to start. It's only a month - unless you are soft and weak a month of fasting if you are in generally fairly good health is no big deal, even during the summer. Obesity is a bigger problem for society. For those concerned about self-abuse and health problems - thanks for your concern but maybe try fasting for a month and then you can speak from experience or knowledge - it's not that difficult and if it is Muslims choose not to fast - I know relatives who aren't fasting due to health issues, e.g. acid reflux making it painful to fast. If Muslims are fasting when it is harmful to their health - they shouldn't be.

I have done kung fu training, gone for a 2 mile run, manned the food stall at the school Fun Day all during the summer fasts. I did a 2.5 minute plank and some push-ups this morning before having a shower.

My 12 year old daughter has chosen to give up her weekly 8.5 hrs of club swim practice and her clarinet lessons during Ramadan - is that considered kicking up a fuss? But both of us were quite chuffed at the muscle definition on our stomachs as our bodies have been breaking down fat for energy over the last 3 days - not the reason we fast during Ramadan but a flat stomach at is an added bonus. Of course when Ramadan is over our stomach muscles soon get covered up again as we go back to eating normally.

I agree the first couple of days of fasting can be hard as your body adjusts to broken sleep by getting up at 2.30am to eat something before the fast starts around 3am, but having a nap after work and going to bed by about 10.30pm helps. Muslims often take a few days off work during Ramadan but working is also a good distraction from thinking about food. In my case it's also caffeine withdrawal headaches for the first 2 days but the NHS website has advice on fasting during Ramadan and there are no health issues if you are in generally good health.
http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Healthyramadan/Pages/fastingandhealth.aspx

I went to my non-Muslim cousin's son's 1st birthday party yesterday with my kids - the 3 of us were fasting and it was a lunch. We had a laugh, chatted to people while they ate and were lucky enough to be given a packed takeaway of the lunch to break fast with later. So we're not eating anything different from non-Muslims when we break fast. Yes I had to explain to a couple of people who kept asking me to go eat that I couldn't because I was fasting - if that is kicking up a fuss, oh well. The people who were there didn't seem to mind and asked questions while continuing to eat. 

Muslims feel they get a lot of benefit from Ramadan. It's one month - get over it.

Gabriella,

That is all fine. But why require a whole community to fast for such a long period? What is its purpose?

There are plenty of good reasons why individuals might want or benefit from fasting for varying periods: for health or religious reasons or even the occasional fasting to death.

But as a group activity - isn't it intended to bolster extremism and in/out group identification? Where people are not 100% fit or in settled environments where they can cope with physiological effects, do they excuse themselves from the fast or continue, just to demonstrate their religiosity or conformity?

[trippymonkey]

Udayana Bhaiya
Ramadan-Ramzan has NO place in modern society & certainly not among most western countries.
It's a very outdated idea that sits uneasily with big fat rich-pig westerners among us.

Much better to donate than screw your body's natural mechanisms & then go off & binge after & just before. What's the point? EXACTLY !!!
People don't  usually get up to eat halfway through the night. Better to go without food for several days to rest the body & just drink liquids.

What is it with self-torture in this religion? Oh I forgot - buying your way into Heaven with all those lovely virgins & rivers of wine etc. Appealing to a certain mindset with the idea we'll have the same bodies we have on earth, eh?
BTW What do the women do while the fellas are getting pissed with those beauties???

[Nearly Sane]

Udayana Bhaiya
Ramadan-Ramzan has NO place in modern society & certainly not among most western countries.
It's a very outdated idea that sits uneasily with big fat rich-pig westerners among us.

Much better to donate than screw your body's natural mechanisms & then go off & binge after & just before. What's the point? EXACTLY !!!
People don't  usually get up to eat halfway through the night. Better to go without food for several days to rest the body & just drink liquids.

What is it with self-torture in this religion? Oh I forgot - buying your way into Heaven with all those lovely virgins & rivers of wine etc. Appealing to a certain mindset with the idea we'll have the same bodies we have on earth, eh?
BTW What do the women do while the fellas are getting pissed with those beauties???

I take it you have no understanding of anorexia or bulimia?

[Udayana]

Udayana Bhaiya
Ramadan-Ramzan has NO place in modern society & certainly not among most western countries
...

I would not go that far. But good/bad effects should be considered, societal not just individual or religious.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Gabriella,

That is all fine. But why require a whole community to fast for such a long period? What is its purpose?

There are plenty of good reasons why individuals might want or benefit from fasting for varying periods: for health or religious reasons or even the occasional fasting to death.

But as a group activity - isn't it intended to bolster extremism and in/out group identification? Where people are not 100% fit or in settled environments where they can cope with physiological effects, do they excuse themselves from the fast or continue, just to demonstrate their religiosity or conformity?

It's just another tradition based on verses in the Quran that fasting is obligatory in order to practise self-restraint, gain taqwa - an Arabic word that loosely translates as consciousness or remembrance of Allah -  and the Islamic belief that the first revelation of the Quran occurred in the month of Ramadan so it is considered a special month. 

Islam is supposed to be a way of life or a journey so a lot of things are regulated in a particular way because these specified practices that require self-discipline  - e.g. fasting and praying at set times - are considered steps towards self-improvement hopefully. Also it strengthens community ties if everyone is fasting at the same time. Yes the flip-side to regulated, self-improvement activities is that they can be taken too far by some individuals and can lead to extreme measures. Extremism is one of the risks of the human ability to hold abstract ideas and follow ideologies and beliefs - religious, political, philosophical, moral etc. Verses in the Quran and certain Hadith promote balance and not exceeding limits - but obviously individuals can choose to ignore that. 

Lots of Muslims don't fast for health reasons or old age in this country - so not really an in/out group - there are alternatives in the Quran for those who don't fast - making up the fast on other days or feeding a poor person. 

If someone wants to fast because they think it proves their religiosity - that's their choice - if there is evidence they are putting a strain on health services by doing so then the issue would need to be addressed.

People do extreme sports, run marathons - they could be relaxing and not bothering - but they get something out of it. Same with fasting. It certainly helps me in an increasingly instant gratification society to have a reason to practise self-restraint. Also helps when we're out and the kids want me to spend money on food or drinks rather than waiting until we get home and they claim to be starving, I remind them they have fasted without a problem so they'll survive for a couple of hours until we get home    

[trippymonkey]

''and the Islamic belief that the first revelation of the Quran occurred in the month of Ramadan so it is considered a special month.''

How can that be? Was Ramadan there BEFORE Islam came about? If so, who was fasting, the Jews?

''Also it strengthens community ties if everyone is fasting at the same time. ''

Or killing non-Muslims or Hindus etc etc. Yes it IS a silly statement I made !!!!

'' if there is evidence they are putting a strain on health services by doing so then the issue would need to be addressed. ''

MMM Like the host community is more important than their faith. 

[Robbie]

''Also it strengthens community ties if everyone is fasting at the same time. ''

It does!

How many Muslims do you know who,having been strengthened by Ramadan, go out and Kill anyone?

Stop being such a fledgling EDL/BNP type and join in other discussions, beginning to think you and your 'grinning' imp-like posts are your only interest.

[Udayana]

...
People do extreme sports, run marathons - they could be relaxing and not bothering - but they get something out of it. Same with fasting. It certainly helps me in an increasingly instant gratification society to have a reason to practise self-restraint. Also helps when we're out and the kids want me to spend money on food or drinks rather than waiting until we get home and they claim to be starving, I remind them they have fasted without a problem so they'll survive for a couple of hours until we get home

Having run the odd marathon or two I am certainly in favour of them. They do help raise a lot of money for charitable causes. However these are individual efforts for individual benefits. 

Imagine an English social tradition where everyone between 16 and 60 that was able, ran a marathon on St Georges day to affirm their allegiance to king and country. Wouldn't that have ramifications throughout society? You would need good reason to institute such a practice.

 

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Well, in the case of fasting I see it as a positive group activity - given that the idea of Ramadan is to practise self-restraint and God-consciousness (taqwa) for 30 days in the hope that it will spill over and influence how you behave the rest of the year i.e. 30 days of fasting might cause the development of a habit of self-restraint and awareness that your good and bad deeds are being judged even when it is not Ramadan.

[trippymonkey]

Agreed but it also depends on what you think is a 'good or bad deed' na?

Terrorists must feel what they're doing is acceptable in fellow fuckwits & Allah's eyes, na?

[Robbie]

Yeah and they're wrong, they've been groomed and manipulated & end up dead while the manipulators live on to mastermind more chaos.

[trippymonkey]

R Again Exactly
When you have a religion so vague that to give one's life to a cause can mean blowing up 'innocents', what can you do?