Author Topic: Protestantism  (Read 49502 times)

ad_orientem

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #275 on: June 15, 2017, 07:15:34 PM »
But they didn't kill him. Did they? Come on, be honest. Which regime executed him?

I explained this, but if you wish to be deliberately dense then be my guest.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #276 on: June 15, 2017, 07:17:43 PM »

Yep.
Theologically sound.
'Nuff said.

Did his blessed mother? Presumably she had a choice too.
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Gordon

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #277 on: June 15, 2017, 07:18:06 PM »
We all need a crucified Christ to deal effectively with our own individual sins.

I don't.


Rhiannon

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #278 on: June 15, 2017, 07:21:53 PM »
I explained this, but if you wish to be deliberately dense then be my guest.

Come on, ad-o. Dare you to say it.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #279 on: June 15, 2017, 07:29:27 PM »
Whoever may have been responsible then - if anyone - nobody is now.
But Hebrews talks about those who crucify him all over again.

ad_orientem

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #280 on: June 15, 2017, 07:29:39 PM »
I'm not falling for it. You presented a leading question designed to produce the answer you would like. I provided a sufficient answer
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Shaker

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #281 on: June 15, 2017, 07:32:25 PM »
But Hebrews talks about those who crucify him all over again.
How ridiculous.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #282 on: June 15, 2017, 07:34:28 PM »

Shaker

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #283 on: June 15, 2017, 07:40:20 PM »
How so?
Because - assuming purely for the sake of the present discussion that the broad facts are more or less true - it is absurd to talk of someone executed two thousand years ago as being "crucified all over again." For someone to talk of their great-great-great-great-grandparent "dying all over again" in anything other than a purely figurative sense would be thought madness; this doesn't change when you substitute a minor apocalyptic itinerant from a middle-eastern backwater two millennia ago.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Anchorman

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #284 on: June 15, 2017, 07:41:15 PM »
Did his blessed mother? Presumably she had a choice too.
Mary was human ,and therefore a sinner like the rest of us, theologically speaking. She needed the saving power of Christ as much as I do. After all, I'm pretty sure Romans 3:23 does not say "All have sinned except and fallen short of the Glory of God except for Mary because tradition which has not yet been created says so."
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 07:44:59 PM by Anchorman »
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

ad_orientem

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #285 on: June 15, 2017, 07:44:03 PM »

Mary was human, and therefore a sinner like the rest of us, theologically speaking.
She needed the saving power of Christ as much as I dio.

She too is saved through Christ (though she lived her life without committing any actual sins) but presumably she wasn't calling for his crucifixion, as David said he would have been compelled to do.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 07:52:13 PM by ad_orientem »
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Rhiannon

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #286 on: June 15, 2017, 08:00:51 PM »
I'm not falling for it. You presented a leading question designed to produce the answer you would like. I provided a sufficient answer

It's not a leading question. I'm asking for a factual answer. Which regime was responsible for executing Jesus?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #287 on: June 15, 2017, 08:01:21 PM »
Because - assuming purely for the sake of the present discussion that the broad facts are more or less true - it is absurd to talk of someone executed two thousand years ago as being "crucified all over again." For someone to talk of their great-great-great-great-grandparent "dying all over again" in anything other than a purely figurative sense would be thought madness; this doesn't change when you substitute a minor apocalyptic itinerant from a middle-eastern backwater two millennia ago.
Stop trying to be the knuckle dragging literalist for the gallery. You're better than that( aside ''Did I just say that?).

................Minor apocalyptic itinerant from a middle-eastern backwater, Shakey?

That's rich coming from a minor apocalypse from an East Midlands Backwater...................Snork.


Shaker

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #288 on: June 15, 2017, 08:13:59 PM »
Stop trying to be the knuckle dragging literalist for the gallery. You're better than that( aside ''Did I just say that?).
So when - according to you - Hebrews talks of those crucifying Christ all over again, does it mean it in the purely figurative my-granny-must-be-spinning-in-her-grave sense or not, and how are we supposed to know? With Christianity there's often a lot of fast-and-loose skipping between (held to be) literal fact and (held to be) metaphor, so it'd be tremendously helpful to know what the procedure is for sorting stuff into their respective heaps.

When Evelyn Waugh, about as irredeemably charmless a human being as you could ever be unfortunate enough to meet, told a soon-to-be-divorced friend that her divorce would hammer new nails into the body of Christ, did he regard the "... so to speak" as a given and not worth writing in full?

Quote
................Minor apocalyptic itinerant from a middle-eastern backwater, Shakey?
Yes. They were 10p each or ten for a pound back in the day.

Quote
That's rich coming from a minor apocalypse from an East Midlands Backwater...................Snork.
As fabulous as I am, I've never claimed to be on a saving mission for all humankind as an earthly emissary of myself to save people from a scenario that I previously either (a) created or (b) allowed to happen.

Yet.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 09:06:09 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Anchorman

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #289 on: June 15, 2017, 08:37:00 PM »
She too is saved through Christ (though she lived her life without committing any actual sins) but presumably she wasn't calling for his crucifixion, as David said he would have been compelled to do.



Where is the evidence - from Scripture - that Mary never committed any sin, please?
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #290 on: June 15, 2017, 08:49:36 PM »
ad,

Quote
It was the Jews who conspired to put their own Messiah and God to death, forcing Pilate's hand who lacked the moral fortitude to do the right thing. By continuing to reject Christ they still fall under that banner.

There’s so much wrong with those few words that it’s genuinely hard to know where to begin.

First, you have no idea whether Jesus even existed at all, let alone that he was a “Messiah and God”. All you actually know is that a book says these things, and that you choose to believe it to be accurate.

Simply assuming that and proceeding accordingly is called the fallacy of reification.

Second, again you use the phrase “the Jews” as if the tiny number who would have been involved even if it did happen were and are somehow representative of the attitudes of all Jews past and present.

This is called the fallacy of composition.

Third, as I understand it this “God” of yours “gave his own son in sacrifice to atone for our sins” or some such. If this god actually did that then it was a put up job all along, and “He” just played "the Jews" (who were supposedly responsible) for patsies.

This is called the fallacy of scapegoating.

Fourth, without "the Jews" following the script "God" had written for them, all that subsequent atonement for Christians wouldn't have happened.

You should be thanking them, not blaming them.

Fifth, according to the story Jesus was only dead for three days in any case, something presumably an omniscient god would have known would be the case. These "conspiring Jews" of yours would have caused horrible pain no doubt, but not death in any permanent sense. If, say, a gang of Chinese people attacked someone who was in a coma for three days and then recovered, would you forever after blame “the Chinese” for putting someone “to death”?

Why not?

Sixth, what lots of people “continue to reject” is a story about Christ that you on the other hand happen to think to be true. So far as I can see moreover, those who do reject it do so for good reason – ie because the evidence is either absent or hopeless. That does not however put someone “under the banner” (whatever that means) of an allegedly violent gang some 2,000 years ago.

Seventh, the god in which you believe is as I understand it supposed to be omnibenevolent. A story that involves a blood sacrifice (albeit only for a few days) for the “sins” (which turn out to be whatever a books says this god says they are) that the rest of us commit to be washed away is a morally contemptible cop out. If I behaved badly, then I like to think that I’d have the decency to take the consequences rather than engage in a tawdry exchange of my self-respect for a free pass.

Moreover, I happen to think that societies would be more humane if everyone thought that rather than some of them cling to the frankly bizarre notion that a deathbed conversion would get them off the hook no matter what they'd done. 

Eighth, have you any sense of where blaming whole races and ethnicities for the supposed crimes of a tiny number of them long ago tends to end up? Of the rationale this morally degrading idiocy provides for those with the intention and means of wiping them out en masse?

Anything?

Ninth…

…well, as you’ll presumably ignore this as you do so much else I don’t see much point in continuing. I could though if I thought any of it would impinge on what passes for your consciousness.

Really, I could.           
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 09:06:56 PM by bluehillside »
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Shaker

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #291 on: June 15, 2017, 08:58:34 PM »
If, say, a gang of Chinese people attacked someone who was in a coma for three days and then recovered, would you forever after blame “the Chinese” for putting someone “to death”?

Why not?

They didn't have the Law and the Prophets, innit.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #292 on: June 15, 2017, 09:02:37 PM »
Shakes,

Quote
They didn't have the Law and the Prophets, innit.

They'd certainly have "the law" (beating people until they are unconscious is unlawful), and "the Prophets" is just another personal belief ad has with no evidence to support it. My Chinese gang would have reason to take that claim seriously at all.
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Shaker

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #293 on: June 15, 2017, 09:07:09 PM »
Shakes,

They'd certainly have "the law" (beating people until they are unconscious is unlawful), and "the Prophets" is just another personal belief ad has with no evidence to support it. My Chinese gang would have reason to take that claim seriously at all.
Well no, but, like, they're, like, heathens.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #294 on: June 15, 2017, 09:11:39 PM »


First, you have no idea whether Jesus even existed at all, let alone that he was a “Messiah and God”.         
How do you know he doesn't know? what strange power do y'...OK cut through the crap it's just your philosophy isn't it Hillside...Cue Hillside now talking about science, Methodology, Ikea, smoke, mirrors etc.

Rhiannon

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #295 on: June 15, 2017, 09:14:08 PM »
Well no, but, like, they're, like, heathens.

Do you think ad-o knows what heathenry is?

Shaker

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #296 on: June 15, 2017, 09:16:50 PM »
Do you think ad-o knows what heathenry is?
No, it's just one of his little buzzwords that he likes to throw around - like the drunkard and the lamppost, more for support than illumination.

I think that he thinks it means: "Anybody who isn't Catholic Orthodox. Well, basically anyone who isn't me, in a nutshell. And I'm not even sure about me sometimes."
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 09:47:11 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #297 on: June 15, 2017, 09:19:14 PM »
Fallacy Boy,

Quote
How do you know he doesn't know? what strange power do y'...OK cut through the crap it's just your philosophy isn't it Hillside...Cue Hillside now talking about science, Methodology, Ikea, smoke, mirrors etc.

Ooh, a late missive from the Bide a Wee While Retirement Home for the Terminally Mendacious. How thrilling.

Aside from the fact that neither he nor anyone else has a cogent argument for knowing that, I know it of course because such a conjecture would be unknowable. We have no tools or methods to test claims of the supernatural.

Must be your cocoa time now right?

Mind the bugs.
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Shaker

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #298 on: June 15, 2017, 09:32:05 PM »
Fallacy Boy,

Ooh, a late missive from the Bide a Wee While Retirement Home for the Terminally Mendacious. How thrilling.
And there was me thinking he'd been moved from there to Dunpostin.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #299 on: June 15, 2017, 09:40:03 PM »
Shakes,

Quote
And there was me thinking he'd been moved from there to Dunpostin.

There's been a bit of a rush - Dunpostin and Dunlyin were both full.
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