Author Topic: Protestantism  (Read 50802 times)

torridon

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #300 on: June 16, 2017, 06:36:06 AM »
Even with the understanding we have today, if I had been standing amongst that crowd before Pilate on that early Friday morning in April AD30, I would have had no choice but to join in the chorus of cries to ‘Crucify Him’.  And that applies equally to you and to all of us.  We all need a crucified Christ to deal effectively with our own individual sins. ...

Maybe taking responsibility for one's actions would be better than blaming some innocent scapegoat ?  Just sayin'

Robbie

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #301 on: June 16, 2017, 06:48:50 AM »
Dave:- if I had been standing amongst that crowd before Pilate on that early Friday morning in April AD30, I would have had no choice but to join in the chorus of cries to ‘Crucify Him’.

You would have had a choice Dave. I'm not a brave person but would rather have stayed away than bayed for anyone's blood.
As a Christian I accept Jesus had to die but don't believe everyone who wanted him dead (at the time) had no choice about the doings of it.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #302 on: June 16, 2017, 08:12:12 AM »
First, you have no idea whether Jesus even existed at all, let alone that he was a “Messiah and God”. All you actually know is that a book says these things, and that you choose to believe it to be accurate.

Christians know, for they have met him, especially in the Eucharist.


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Second, again you use the phrase “the Jews” as if the tiny number who would have been involved even if it did happen were and are somehow representative of the attitudes of all Jews past and present.

All strands of Judaism that exist today come from the Pharisaic tradition, the same which plotted against our Lord.


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Third, as I understand it this “God” of yours “gave his own son in sacrifice to atone for our sins” or some such. If this god actually did that then it was a put up job all along, and “He” just played "the Jews" (who were supposedly responsible) for patsies.

That God knows the entire history of his creation doess not relieve anyone of their moral responsibility, for God also gave us freewill.


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Fourth, without "the Jews" following the script "God" had written for them, all that subsequent atonement for Christians wouldn't have happened. You should be thanking them, not blaming them.


There would have been another way, that's all, but now the Jews are an example of disobedience. As a nation they are now cut off. The only way back is to have faith in Christ and be baptised into the Church.


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Fifth, according to the story Jesus was only dead for three days in any case, something presumably an omniscient god would have known would be the case. These "conspiring Jews" of yours would have caused horrible pain no doubt, but not death in any permanent sense. If, say, a gang of Chinese people attacked someone who was in a coma for three days and then recovered, would you forever after blame “the Chinese” for putting someone “to death”?

That is something entirely different. Read the Old Testament and you will read a history of disobedience, killing of God's prophets and bowing down to idols. In the New, ultimately, murdering their own Messiah and God.


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Sixth, what lots of people “continue to reject” is a story about Christ that you on the other hand happen to think to be true. So far as I can see moreover, those who do reject it do so for good reason – ie because the evidence is either absent or hopeless. That does not however put someone “under the banner” (whatever that means) of an allegedly violent gang some 2,000 years ago.

See above.


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Seventh, the god in which you believe is as I understand it supposed to be omnibenevolent. A story that involves a blood sacrifice (albeit only for a few days) for the “sins” (which turn out to be whatever a books says this god says they are) that the rest of us commit to be washed away is a morally contemptible cop out. If I behaved badly, then I like to think that I’d have the decency to take the consequences rather than engage in a tawdry exchange of my self-respect for a free pass.

That is because you do not understand the grace of God.


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Eighth, have you any sense of where blaming whole races and ethnicities for the supposed crimes of a tiny number of them long ago tends to end up? Of the rationale this morally degrading idiocy provides for those with the intention and means of wiping them out en masse?

We're talking about the Jewish religion. Plenty of Jews believed in Christ, however, they then ceased to be Jews but instead became Christians.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 08:18:28 AM by ad_orientem »
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #303 on: June 16, 2017, 08:21:15 AM »
Robinson,

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As a Christian I accept Jesus had to die but don't believe everyone who wanted him dead (at the time) had no choice about the doings of it.

That makes no sense. If "Jesus had to die" the presumably it would have been because "God" engineered it that way. What choice then was there?
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Ricky Spanish

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #304 on: June 16, 2017, 08:25:27 AM »
Isn't Judas just another Greek name for Jews?

Propaganda?
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floo

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #305 on: June 16, 2017, 08:31:24 AM »
Even with the understanding we have today, if I had been standing amongst that crowd before Pilate on that early Friday morning in April AD30, I would have had no choice but to join in the chorus of cries to ‘Crucify Him’.  And that applies equally to you and to all of us.  We all need a crucified Christ to deal effectively with our own individual sins.  So we are all equally guilty of being the agents of Jesus’ death and have no moral right to cast all the blame on the Jewish people or their Roman accomplices

We need to deal with our own wrongdoings, and not the cop out scenario of a long dead guy supposedly fixing them for us. ::)

Anchorman

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #306 on: June 16, 2017, 08:45:18 AM »


Where is the evidence - from Scripture - that Mary never committed any sin, please?

[/quote



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from #288
Bumped for ad_o.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #307 on: June 16, 2017, 08:50:36 AM »


Where is the evidence - from Scripture - that Mary never committed any sin, please?

[/quote



-
from #288
Bumped for ad_o.

 Nothing directly from the scriptures but it nevertheless comes from the Apostles. The proof of having not committed any sin was in her Dormition, having acheived theosis in this life.
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Anchorman

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #308 on: June 16, 2017, 08:57:18 AM »
Nothing directly from the scriptures but it nevertheless comes from the Apostles. The proof of having not committed any sin was in her Dormition, having acheived theosis in this life.



Ah.....so nothing to do with Scripture, more this unsubstantiated tradition thingy, then.
Thanks.
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floo

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #309 on: June 16, 2017, 08:57:38 AM »
Nothing directly from the scriptures but it nevertheless comes from the Apostles. The proof of having not committed any sin was in her Dormition, having acheived theosis in this life.

Mary was just an ordinary girl who got up the duff before a ring was placed on her finger. After that she only has a bit part in the Bible, even her own son didn't seem to give her much credence. Goodness knows why the catholic/orthodox churches make such a fuss about her, even calling her the 'Queen of Heaven'. Do they think she and god are still having it off up there? ::) 

ad_orientem

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #310 on: June 16, 2017, 09:01:53 AM »


Ah.....so nothing to do with Scripture, more this unsubstantiated tradition thingy, then.
Thanks.

But the Church never was, is not, and never will be sola scriptura. It's a great big whopping heresy. How many Protestant sects are there now?
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floo

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #311 on: June 16, 2017, 09:09:53 AM »
But the Church never was, is not, and never will be sola scriptura. It's a great big whopping heresy. How many Protestant sects are there now?

Tradition has been the downfall of the catholic and orthodox dogmas.

ad_orientem

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #312 on: June 16, 2017, 09:18:00 AM »
Eh? That doesn't make any sense.
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floo

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #313 on: June 16, 2017, 09:20:35 AM »
Eh? That doesn't make any sense.

What good has it done them?

ad_orientem

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #314 on: June 16, 2017, 09:27:05 AM »
What good has it done them?


The dogmas are the tradition.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #315 on: June 16, 2017, 09:40:49 AM »
ad,

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Christians know, for they have met him, especially in the Eucharist.

Kalahari bushmen know their spirit gods are real because they have met them, especially in their rituals.

You haven’t made an argument here – just a repetition of the same unqualified assertion. Assert that as you may, you provide no reason to for anyone else to think you’re right about that. Worse perhaps, you have no reason to think you’re right about that rather than that you just have a strong personal opinion on the matter. That’s not to say that you’re necessarily wrong just as a matter of a lucky guess, but circumstantially at least what you describe correlates to a meme rather than to a “revealed” truth.

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All strands of Judaism that exist today come from the Pharisaic tradition, the same which plotted against our Lord.

Leaving aside the repeated reification of “our Lord”, even if some Jews were to some degree at least responsible, that still doesn’t mean their descendants were or are guilty of anything.   

Are you not part of the same “tradition” responsible for the crusades and the Spanish inquisition? Should I therefore blame you for these events?

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That God knows the entire history of his creation doess not relieve anyone of their moral responsibility, for God also gave us freewill.

Doesn’t work.

First, if this “God” created us capable of breaking “His” rules then got upset when we did it that was a design fault.   

Second, if this “God” wanted to make a blood sacrifice of his own son then the Jews involved were just patsies in “His” plan. If “He” chose a few Jews to take the fall for the rest of humanity, that was “His” fault, not the fault of the people “He” chose as a plot device. 

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There would have been another way, that's all, but now the Jews are an example of disobedience. As a nation they are now cut off. The only way back is to have faith in Christ and be baptised into the Church.

No. Lots of people have been “disobedient” if by that you mean something like “broken God’s rules”. Picking on just one group drawn from one ethnicity to take the rap is called scapegoating.   

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That is something entirely different. Read the Old Testament and you will read a history of disobedience, killing of God's prophets and bowing down to idols. In the New, ultimately, murdering their own Messiah and God.

First, if someone is out of commission for a bit and then walking around again he wasn’t “murdered”. Rendered comatose perhaps, but not murdered.

Second, I can read the collection of tribal folk stories called the OT as much as I want, but that’s all I’d have – stories. You’d have all your work ahead of you if you wanted to demonstrate that there were “prophets”, a “Messiah” etc.

Third, even if we do play along lots of people would have been “disobedient”. Why would a just “God” have scapegoated just some of them to provide his deus ex machina rather than, say, caused their crops to fail for a bit by way of a yellow card?

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See above.

See above. You cannot just visit the (supposed) sins of the father on the son. Even if there was an incompetent designer god with a scumbag sense of morality who thought it was fine to blame selectively for his own mistake and then engineered events to make it happen, that still wouldn’t implicate the descendants of the people involved.     

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That is because you do not understand the grace of God.

That’s not an answer. You may as well have said “it’s magic innit”. There’s no “grace” in expecting me to trade my self-respect for a free pass for my wrongdoing. Personally, I hold myself to a higher moral standard than that – if I do bad things, then I should take responsibility for them.

Would that more Christians did the same.   

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We're talking about the Jewish religion. Plenty of Jews believed in Christ, however, they then ceased to be Jews but instead became Christians.

The Nazis didn’t distinguish between practicing and non-practicing Jews.

Your justifications here are the morality of the gas chamber guard – you’d rationalise anything, and you make it worse by wrapping up the morally contemptible in a cloak of holier than thou. After all, those Jews only have themselves to blame right?

Disgusting stuff ad, disgusting stuff.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 09:49:36 AM by bluehillside »
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #316 on: June 16, 2017, 09:43:21 AM »
Floo,

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Mary was just an ordinary girl who got up the duff before a ring was placed on her finger.

Worse still, if it was God wot did it presumably she wouldn't have had a say in the matter either.

There's a word for that kind of thing I think...
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Anchorman

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #317 on: June 16, 2017, 09:49:59 AM »
But the Church never was, is not, and never will be sola scriptura. It's a great big whopping heresy. How many Protestant sects are there now?



Your sentence seems to indicate that the church is a "great big whopping heresy"
Agreed!
As for how many 'protestant' sects?
Dunno. I belong to a Reformed Church.
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ekim

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #318 on: June 16, 2017, 10:12:30 AM »


Your justifications here are the morality of the gas chamber guard – you’d rationalise anything, and you make it worse by wrapping up the morally contemptible in a cloak of holier than thou.

Unfortunately that is the nature of orthodoxy.  There is no choice other than to obey the teachings established by the particular tradition.  To choose otherwise is heresy (coming from the Greek word for choice).  I suspect that Jesus was a heretic to the Jewish orthodoxy of the time, the Pharisees.  Death is the ultimate silencing of heresy and the controlling agent of orthodoxy.

floo

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #319 on: June 16, 2017, 10:45:58 AM »
Floo,

Worse still, if it was God wot did it presumably she wouldn't have had a say in the matter either.

There's a word for that kind of thing I think...

Yep there is, especially as she would have most likely been a young teenager. :o

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #320 on: June 16, 2017, 11:04:47 AM »
ekim,

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Unfortunately that is the nature of orthodoxy.  There is no choice other than to obey the teachings established by the particular tradition.  To choose otherwise is heresy (coming from the Greek word for choice).  I suspect that Jesus was a heretic to the Jewish orthodoxy of the time, the Pharisees.  Death is the ultimate silencing of heresy and the controlling agent of orthodoxy.

Quite. Essentially he tries victim blaming, the wife beater's defence: "If only she'd done as she was told, I wouldn't have had to beat her up".

I have no belief in "evil" in the religious sense of a tangible entity, but in the sense of "irredeemably, despicably immoral" I find ad's position to be as close to it as I can think of.   
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ad_orientem

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #321 on: June 16, 2017, 11:19:39 AM »
ekim,

Quite. Essentially he tries victim blaming, the wife beater's defence: "If only she'd done as she was told, I wouldn't have had to beat her up".

I have no belief in "evil" in the religious sense of a tangible entity, but in the sense of "irredeemably, despicably immoral" I find ad's position to be as close to it as I can think of.

Eh? The gosoel accounts are quite clear, especially the gospel according to St. John. I make no apologies for believing in it or St. Peter's speech to the multitude at Pentecost or St. Stephen's speech just before he was stoned to death.

As for evil, we do not believe it is an entity. Even the devil, in as much as he has being, is good. Evil is merely an absence of good, just as darkness is an absence of light.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #322 on: June 16, 2017, 11:35:54 AM »
ad,

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Eh? The gosoel accounts are quite clear, especially the gospel according to St. John. I make no apologies for believing in it or St. Peter's speech to the multitude at Pentecost or St. Stephen's speech just before he was stoned to death.

You can believe whatever you like, however much the evidence for it is entirely absent. What you can't do though is to use your personal convictions about that to rationalise the real world treatment of people who are the baddies in those stories.

That's the morally contemptible bit.

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As for evil, we do not believe it is an entity. Even the devil, in as much as he has being, is good. Evil is merely an absence of good, just as darkness is an absence of light.

But you do it seems believe there to be a "devil" at all. Do you really not think that those of us possessed of a functioning intellect who find ludicrous the frankly bizarre menagerie of characters from a fourteenth century sensibility you think real to be are capable of being morally good without sharing your superstitions?

And if you do think moral judgment is achievable by people like that, can you see why some would find your comments about the Jews to be morally despicable?   
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ad_orientem

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #323 on: June 16, 2017, 11:44:15 AM »
Characters from a fourteenth century sensibility? What are you going on about?

I don't care what you or others here think. I wouldn't use anyone here as the mark of what is moral or immoral. What matters to me us what is right according to God.

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floo

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Re: Protestantism
« Reply #324 on: June 16, 2017, 12:22:35 PM »
Characters from a fourteenth century sensibility? What are you going on about?

I don't care what you or others here think. I wouldn't use anyone here as the mark of what is moral or immoral. What matters to me us what is right according to God.

The Biblical god's idea of what is right, is what many decent people would think was very wrong. >:(