Protestantism

[bluehillside Retd.]

So ad, is there in your mind the possibility at least that you could be wrong about all this?

[ad_orientem]

ad,

A bit presumptuous isn't it? Maybe the Jews have prayed for the conversion of orthodox Christians too.

Maybe they have, I don't know, but neither is it any of my business. We have our own prayers. I'm content with that.

[bluehillside Retd.]

ad,

Maybe they have, I don't know, but neither is it any of my business. We have our own prayers. I'm content with that.

No doubt you are, but you implied again that if only those pesky Jews would listen to these prayers they'd be off the hook of all being to blame for killing a "Messiah" so when bad things happen to them it's like, you know, their fault.

Stinks doesn't it.   

[bluehillside Retd.]

ad,

Oh, and about that doubt thing?

[Rhiannon]

The Church has prayed for the conversion of the Jews, as in the ancient  Roman Good Friday prayers, and also for heretics and schismatics and also pagans

Listen mate, don't waste your breath. Paganism is so much more fun.

[Rhiannon]

I understand what you are saying but it is a Christian doctrine that Jesus died because of our sins. As I said that will mean nothing to most people so please let's not get bogged down with it.

My main point was that individuals have choices when it comes to physically killing someone.

'Most people' are perfectly capable of understanding what is meant by it. They also disagree with it. I once believed it and IME it is a nasty and damaging thing for anyone to live by or for an organisation to teach.

[Shaker]

Listen mate, don't waste your breath. Paganism is so much more fun.

This is true. And I'm not even one*. But it's fairly easy to judge people by their demeanour and actions. All the pagans I've met over the years have been thoroughly good eggs; nice folk who have beliefs which, in my experience, tend on the whole to make the world rather nicer than the opposite. I haven't yet met a single one who prays for other people to be converted to paganism, interestingly enough. They don't seem to do two-thousand-year-old collective blame and shame either, for that matter.

I don't know but assume they consider one's spiritual direction (if any) to be a private and personal affair which is nobody else's business. Which is sporting of them.

* Though I'm reliably informed that some may disagree 

[Ricky Spanish]

Has anyone mentioned 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 yet?

[Shaker]

Has anyone mentioned 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 yet?

I did once but I think I got away with it.

[ad_orientem]

Has anyone mentioned 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 yet?

For you, brethren, are become followers of the churches of God which are in Judea, in Christ Jesus: for you also have suffered the same things from your own coutrymen, even as they have from the Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus, and the prophets, and have persecuted us, and please not God, and are adversaries to all men; prohibiting us to speak to the Gentiles, that they may be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath of God is come upon them to the end.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Fallacy Boy,

Ooh, a late missive from the Bide a Wee While Retirement Home for the Terminally Mendacious. How thrilling.

Aside from the fact that neither he nor anyone else has a cogent argument for knowing that, I know it of course because such a conjecture would be unknowable. We have no tools or methods to test claims of the supernatural.

Must be your cocoa time now right?

Mind the bugs.

Category Rogering person.

The test for supernatural is simple. That which we encounter for which an arseclenching and idiotic commitment to philosophical naturalism doesn't help.

Once we are there we need to learn whose who and what's what.

Unfortunately the universe has Supernatural aspects to it vis how comes to be but carry on ignoring that if you will.

[Anchorman]

Even if the first was true, then you would still have to prove that that is where they got their inspiration from, which you can't. So up yours!

What do you mean 'even if the first was true'?
One of the problems with the Egyptians - whether Pharonic, Hellenic or early Coptic was that whenever they saw a statue, they wrote on it - with chisels,
If you don't believe me, the statue of the so-called 'Virgin' holding an ankh to the Christ child is in the foyer of St Mark's Coptic Church, Cairo - just off Tahrir square.
Not a bad example of Hellenic Egyptian cyncretism in art, by the way.
It dates to around c320.

[Rhiannon]

Hadn't seen 'so up yours' used in theological debate before. Plenty of 'so ners', which usually wins all arguments over the apostolic succession or transubstantiation. "So up yours' takes things to a whole new level.

But then ad-o did once try and win an argument by calling me a cunt to I guess this astonishing level of intellectual cut-and-thrust was only to be expected.

[Shaker]

Category Rogering person.

The test for supernatural is simple. That which we encounter for which an arseclenching and idiotic commitment to philosophical naturalism doesn't help.

Once we are there we need to learn whose who and what's what.

Unfortunately the universe has Supernatural aspects to it vis how comes to be but carry on ignoring that if you will.

That was nearly English.

Entirely gibberish, unfortunately.

[Anchorman]

Hadn't seen 'so up yours' used in theological debate before. Plenty of 'so ners', which usually wins all arguments over the apostolic succession or transubstantiation. "So up yours' takes things to a whole new level.

But then ad-o did once try and win an argument by calling me a cunt to I guess this astonishing level of intellectual cut-and-thrust was only to be expected.

Maybe it's a translation from the Greek tradition.

[Shaker]

Maybe they have, I don't know, but neither is it any of my business.

Not your business, yet you consider the conversion of the Jews from their religion to yours to be your business. (That's to say the business of the absolute and final truth of the Almighty as filtered through sundry human beings over millennia as it appears to be to you in the authoritarian, absolutist and dogmatic worldview you happen to favour this trip around the sun - which by the way isn't a symbolic representation of the risen Son of Itself aka an ancient near-eastern workman but a giant sphere of hydrogen-to-helium-producing plasma, mostly through the proton-proton chain but some possibly through the C-N-O cycle, i.e. hydrogen-deuterium-helium, held in hydrostatic equilibrium for another five billion years or so. Which is to say, it's not a long-dead Jewish builder in mufti - that would explain a lot; two thousand years and he still hasn't turned up - but our local star upon which we depend).

Remind me: in terms that don't make you look like an utter, utter twat, exactly how does this almost superhuman lack of self-awareness work again?

[Ricky Spanish]

For you, brethren, are become followers of the churches of God which are in Judea, in Christ Jesus: for you also have suffered the same things from your own countrymen, even as they have from the Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus, and the prophets, and have persecuted us, and please not God, and are adversaries to all men; prohibiting us to speak to the Gentiles, that they may be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath of God is come upon them to the end.

So how are we supposed to understand this passage?

[Rhiannon]

Maybe it's a translation from the Greek tradition.

Very good. 

[Owlswing]

Quote from: Owlswing on Today at 17:08:05

Quite a lot of the veneration of Mary was included because the Pagans the Church was trying to convert were not at all happy with being told that only the male God existed - the oldest religious artifact ever discivered (so far) - 25 to 23,000 BCE, is a statue of a WOMAN - Pagans were aware that both sexes were required to create life and mistrusted the Christain patriachy.

Where did you get that from, Dan Brown?

No! I study the history of my beliefs. Paganism, just as you, supposedly study yours.

The difference of course, is that I am prepared to acknowledge that my beliefs are just that, beliefs, a matter of faith, and not of fact as Christians insist that their beliefs are but are incapable of providing any grain of proof of the existence of their God.

I equally cannot prove the existence of mine, but I do NOT as you do, ad nauseam, insist that yours is the one true path without such proof.

The entire Christian religion in all its innumerable versions is, like mine, nothing more than a matter of faith, of belief, for which there is no proof!

Just that my beliefs, in one form or another, pre-date yours by 25,000 years proved by a Goddess figure dated from that age. 

[bluehillside Retd.]

Fallacy Boy,

Category Rogering person.

No so far I’m not. Do I really need to explain to you yet again what “category error” actually means, only for you to fuck it up again?

Really?

The test for supernatural is simple.

Wow! Fallacy Boy has a test for claims of the supernatural. Coolio!

OK, hang on a mo…let me just pop open a fresh family pack of Twiglets and big bottle of Tizer…

Right you are then, all settled in and ready for the big reveal. Go for it!

That which we encounter for which an arseclenching and idiotic commitment to philosophical naturalism doesn't help.

Aw no! Say it ain’t so! This “test” turns out to be just a collapse into total gibberish.

Oh well – I should have known really.

Nurse! It’s his bedtime now I think.

Once we are there we need to learn whose who and what's what.

NURSE! HE’S FROTHING AT THE MOUTH NOW!

Unfortunately the universe has Supernatural aspects to it vis how comes to be but carry on ignoring that if you will.

Aw bless – old Fallacy Boy still seems to think that “absence of an evidence-based explanation” is a synonym for “supernatural”. Rather sweet really, his reliance on the argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy.

Oh well. Maybe ask nurse for an extra garibaldi tonight to help you feel a bit better after having crashed and burned so spectacularly.

[Walter]

Has anyone mentioned 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 yet?

don't mention the war!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Fallacy Boy,

No so far I’m not. Do I really need to explain to you yet again what “category error” actually means, only for you to fuck it up again?

Really?

Wow! Fallacy Boy has a test for claims of the supernatural. Coolio!

OK, hang on a mo…let me just pop open a fresh family pack of Twiglets and big bottle of Tizer…

Right you are then, all settled in and ready for the big reveal. Go for it!

Aw no! Say it ain’t so! This “test” turns out to be just a collapse into total gibberish.

Oh well – I should have known really.

Nurse! It’s his bedtime now I think.

NURSE! HE’S FROTHING AT THE MOUTH NOW!

Aw bless – old Fallacy Boy still seems to think that “absence of an evidence-based explanation” is a synonym for “supernatural”. Rather sweet really, his reliance on the argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy.

Oh well. Maybe ask nurse for an extra garibaldi tonight to help you feel a bit better after having crashed and burned so spectacularly.

Either nature popped out of nothing, is eternal, or created itself......which one of those is susceptible to scientific investigation?

Cue handwaving durry that will make the weaker minded antitheist ''Moist''.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Fallacy Boy,

Either nature popped out of nothing, is eternal, or created itself......which one of those is susceptible to scientific investigation?

Oh dear. You committed the fallacy of the false binary: "Either there's a naturalistic explanation for something, or it's supernatural". This is obviously wrong - if there's no naturalistic explanation for something all that gives you is a "don't know". If you want to assert "supernatural", then first you need to define it and then you need to make an argument for it.

Essentially your "thinking" here is the same as the Viking who, absent an explanation for thunder, insisted that it must therefore be Thor.

Doesn't work does it.   

Cue handwaving durry that will make the weaker minded antitheist ''Moist''.

And that fallacy is called poisoning the well.

You're on a fallacy roll today aren't you.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Fallacy Boy,

Oh dear. You committed the fallacy of the false binary: "Either there's a naturalistic explanation for something, or it's supernatural".

Absolutely incorrect.
Where have I suggested a natural explanation?

If you want to go ahead......... but at this stage in the game it is you who will either be unable to suggest a naturalistic explanation or be forced to offer what you've called a false binary.

Good luck with that.

And with you left well and truly up shit creek sans padelle I will bid you a good day.

[floo]

Absolutely incorrect.
Where have I suggested a natural explanation?

If you want to go ahead......... but at this stage in the game it is you who will either be unable to suggest a naturalistic explanation or be forced to offer what you've called a false binary.

Good luck with that.

And with you left well and truly up shit creek sans padelle I will bid you a good day.

Talking to yourself again, dear?