Male Genital Mutilation

[Rhiannon]

You can't bully them Gordon, only me.

You owe him an apology for that one.

[Bubbles]

Yeah. 'We welcome you, you cute baby boy you,  into our community once you have had a bit chopped off your penis.'

Wtf?

Did you really not know this?

https://www.thejc.com/comment/comment/circumcision-is-at-the-heart-of-jewish-identity-1.53320

http://www.mohel-circumcision.co.uk/1206.html

[Rhiannon]

Did you really not know this?

https://www.thejc.com/comment/comment/circumcision-is-at-the-heart-of-jewish-identity-1.53320

http://www.mohel-circumcision.co.uk/1206.html

 

I was commenting on how poor an argument it is.

[Gordon]

You can't bully them Gordon, only me.

They don't go on message boards where they are like to meet the bullying self righteousness you get on here.

They are perhaps too introspective and insightless to break free of the fallacies of authority and tradition, so they might need some help in the form of legal imperatives to compel them to stop the barbarism.

I'm quite happy to bully those who mutilate their children in the hope that in due course they will be forced to stop doing so if they can't find the humanity to stop of their own accord.

[Shaker]

Baby boys who can't be circumcised for medical reasons - usually haemophilia; there are a few other conditions - are still considered fully and entirely Jewish.

So the 'identity' business is bullshit.

[Shaker]

They are perhaps too introspective and insightless to break free of the fallacies of authority and tradition, so they might need some help in the form of legal imperatives to compel them to stop the barbarism.

I'm quite happy to bully those who mutilate their children in the hope that in due course they will be forced to stop doing so if they can't find the humanity to stop of their own accord.

I'll say an ironic post-modern 'amen' to that.

[Bubbles]

You owe him an apology for that one.

No, it definately has felt like bullying at times. Not just Gordon

[Bubbles]

They are perhaps too introspective and insightless to break free of the fallacies of authority and tradition, so they might need some help in the form of legal imperatives to compel them to stop the barbarism.

I'm quite happy to bully those who mutilate their children in the hope that in due course they will be forced to stop doing so if they can't find the humanity to stop of their own accord.

That's what concerns me, how people here would treat a Jewish person if they dared to come on here.

I would hate to think people here would turn on them because they were Jewish and wouldn't conform to the mindset on here.

It doesn't hurt me, because my sons are uncircumcised and it's not my community, but I would hate to think you would all start on someone because they were themselves.

Some of you are intolerant of differences.

[Rhiannon]

No, it definately has felt like bullying at times. Not just Gordon

It's disagreement. And if people feel hostile then it because you are using poor argument and unfounded accusations of prejudice to defend the indefensible.

[Rhiannon]

That's what concerns me, how people here would treat a Jewish person if they dared to come on here.

I would hate to think people here would turn on them because they were Jewish and wouldn't conform to the mindset on here.

It doesn't hurt me, because my sons are uncircumcised and it's not my community, but I would hate to think you would all start on someone because they were themselves.

Some of you are intolerant of differences.

Have people turned on Gabriella?

Your unfounded and disgusting allegations of antisemitism against the posters here are appalling.

[Gordon]

No, it definately has felt like bullying at times. Not just Gordon

I'm just observing that your apologist stance in support of circumcision implies your support the ritual mutilation of baby boys: if you interpret that as bullying then you need a thicker skin.   

[Robbie]

I don't think she is Rhiannon (your post 8.21pm.) Rose has posted links that give a lot of detail & no-one much appears to have read them properly, she's often picked on & quoted out of context. She has also made it clear she is not in the pro-circumcision camp but can understand the arguments for.

No, it definately has felt like bullying at times. Not just Gordon

You're right in my opinion.

[Bubbles]

It's disagreement. And if people feel hostile then it because you are using poor argument and unfounded accusations of prejudice to defend the indefensible.

The reason many Jews won't discuss it, is because of past abuse.

I have managed to discuss it, and what  was told is the biggest stumbling block is the passage in Genesis.

"  9God said further to Abraham, “Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10“This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised. 11“And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12“And every male among you who is eight days old shall be circumcised throughout your generations, a servant who is born in the house or who is bought with money from any foreigner, who is not of your descendants. 13“A servant who is born in your house or who is bought with your money shall surely be circumcised; thus shall My covenant be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14“But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”"

Because it says that, a lot of Orthodox Jews won't consider " giving it up"

Not without a fight, anyway.

From their viewpoint, they have been commanded to do that and yes they also do it to welcome the baby into the Jewish community.

I would hate for someone to make it illegal,  so that babies are circumcised without hygienic conditions.

The BMA report actually says the harm caused by male circumcision isn't conclusive.

[Bubbles]

I don't think she is Rhiannon (your post 8.21pm.) Rose has posted links that give a lot of detail & no-one much appears to have read them properly, she's often picked on & quoted out of context. She has also made it clear she is not in the pro-circumcision camp but can understand the arguments for.

You're right in my opinion.

No they never bothered to read my links Robinson. I do read and have posted both sides.

[Bubbles]

I was commenting on how poor an argument it is.

So you sit in judgment of Judaism then? and you're not really interested in seeing the other POV.

[Shaker]

So you sit in judgment of Judaism then and your are not really interested in seeing the other POV.

I sit in judgement of anyone who thinks slicing bits off babies without consent is a good and a right thing to do whatever fatuous and asinine reasons they cough up for it.

Your well-poisoning accusations of anti-Semitism won't wash here.

[Nearly Sane]

Moderator

 Accusations of bullying are taken very seriously. If a poster thinks they are being bullied, then please report the post(s).

[Rhiannon]

So you sit in judgment of Judaism then? and you're not really interested in seeing the other POV.

Now who is judging and distorting?

[Bubbles]

Have people turned on Gabriella?

Your unfounded and disgusting allegations of antisemitism against the posters here are appalling.

Not yet, not on this they haven't. Too busy having a go at me.

Gabriella picks the things she challenges you all on, so she keeps control of the discussion.

I don't doubt if she didn't keep her dignified self control, you would all start on her too.

[Bubbles]

Now who is judging and distorting?

You!

The links you quoted,  of mine,  in your post saying what a poor argument it was, were Jewish ones explaining its importance to them.

So basically you judged their reasoning without even bothering to try and understand the issue.

Or even discuss it.

I posted them because you indicated you didn't understand that it was an initiation ceremony welcoming the baby to the Jewish community, hence I posted ones that explained.

Did you even bother to look? Before flippantly saying it was a poor argument?

Do you come here to discuss? Or scoff?

[Shaker]

One can do both.

[Rhiannon]

Funny how intolerant the cries of 'you're intolerant' are looking.

[Aruntraveller]

uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”"

The really perplexing thing about this is that we are made in Gods image. Genesis 1:27

So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

So was God formed fully circumcised, and then made a mistake in the copying bit of the process. So then had to get his/her people to correct his/her mistake. But then God doesn't make mistakes.

Of course, God could have been circumcised by somebody/thing else but that begs another altogether more regressive question.

It's all very confusing.

[Bubbles]

It's disagreement. And if people feel hostile then it because you are using poor argument and unfounded accusations of prejudice to defend the indefensible.

I'm not using poor argument, I have supported everything I have said with links to the world Health organisation and the BMA.

I've also at times posted links to BOTH sides.

Only Robinson seems to have bothered to read them.

No one seems very interested in exploring the issues at all, all people can do is keep going in the same old circular arguments, misrepresenting my posts and trying to bully me into thinking like them.

Well thats not happening.

You say my arguments are bad ones, but at least I put forward links for both sides and try and discuss it.

I absolutely hate bullies who can't consider a different POV and can't look past their own narrow minded views.

I did point out to you, I wasn't pro circumcision, that I was for allowing different POV when it comes to such things.

If the BMA say harm is not conclusive if circumcision is done in good hygienic conditions, then that is what they say. They are far more medically qualified than people here.

If that is what they say, I am happy to leave such decisions to other parents, to make up their own minds.

I chose not to. They choose differently. Live and let live.

I'm sorry most of you don't know how to be tolerant of others different from yourselves, or that you can't understand earning a bit of pocket money isn't slavery, or any of the other arguments you have on here where there is no middle ground. Or children shouldn't be allowed to go to a party unless the parents are vetted.

Most of you are too much alike, there is no middle ground, no understanding of the difference between earning a bit of free cash and indentured slavery. The only time you disagree with each other is when one of you take a step to far and is a bit more staid and pedantic than the rest.

Seriously it isn't my problem, it's yours!

If it makes you insecure that I can discuss the issues and I'm not staid and fixed in my ways of seeing the world, I can always find somewhere else.

I don't fit in here, You know it, and I know it.

The narrow minded attitude gets to me, after a while.

Robinson, you are an interesting person. You read deeply and understand a lot. It's a shame but I'm moving on.

Don't let them make you like them 😉

I have asked NS to terminate my membership.

[ProfessorDavey]

BMA

"It is important that doctors consider the child’s social and cultural circumstances. Where a child is living in a culture in which circumcision is required for all males, the increased acceptance into a family or society that circumcision can confer is considered to be a strong social or cultural benefit. Exclusion may cause harm by, for example, complicating the individual’s search for identity and sense of belonging. Clearly, assessment of such intangible risks and benefits is complex. On a more practical level, some people also argue that it is necessary to consider the effects of a decision not to circumcise. If there is a risk that a child will be circumcised in unhygienic or otherwise unsafe conditions, doctors may consider it better that they carry out the procedure, or refer to another practitioner, rather than allow the child to be put at risk."

I note you failed to provide the next paragraph, which argues in the opposite direction:

'On the other hand, very similar arguments are also used to try and justify very harmful cultural procedures, such as female genital mutilation or ritual scarification. Furthermore, the harm of denying a person the opportunity to choose not to be circumcised must also be taken into account, together with the damage that can be done to the individual’s relationship with his parents and the medical profession if he feels harmed by the procedure.'