Male Genital Mutilation

[Shaker]

Then men would suffer if such a thing happened.
For medical reasons sometimes the procedure must be carried out.

We're not referring to therapeutic (i.e. medically necessary) circumcision but ritual circumcision carried for no other reason than the religious beliefs of the parents, not the subject of the surgery.

[Robbie]

I've read all of this thread so far and remember(with horror) what you said on previous thread about rabbis sucking the wound with potential for infection. I'd no idea about that before you posted and thought it was disgusting, is it a regular thing? I'd think not.
What HH said about the cornflake man & has repeated on this thread was also an eye opener especially when I googled Mr Kellogg and found out his motives.

Whilst i am an will always be sensitive to other cultures I've come round to thinking that circumcision, other than for medical reasons (one of my lovely nephews was 'done' as a small child for a problem,no ill effects),should only be undertaken when a person is old enough to understand and agree. Then should be done by qualified medic with experience and no history of mistakes, in surgical surroundings.

(Personal experience' A friend of mine who is Muslim had a nephew who had the procedure when he was thirteen, again with no bad effects, the point being he understood and agreed with no pressure (never thought to ask her about her son!!! He's now 29 & just got marriedto the love of his life, also Muslim,whom he met at uni. Presumably he is Ok i'm not gonna ask now.
Thinking about it my husband is circumcised, he's just 59. When we first got together I asked him if he knew why and he said he had no idea & had never thought to ask! It happened before he could remember. Obviously no ill effects, he's always been fine (as was boyrfiend i had before him  )

Let's hope the law takes this seriously as well as being sensitive to traditional beliefs. It will take time to completely eradicate the practice of circumcising babies.

[ad_orientem]

Then men would suffer if such a thing happened.
For medical reasons sometimes the procedure must be carried out.

It should only be allowed if medically necessary, otherwise the supposed benefits are a myth.

[floo]

Wow a subject on which we are all agreed, with one exception, that is rarity.

I have heard before of Rabbis sucking the circumcision site in an attempt to prevent infection, hmmmmmmmmmmm!   

[DaveM]

Despite a number of posts which seem to have elected to deliberately misrepresents my views, I am not in favour of circumcision unless there are compelling medical reasons to do so.  But I live in a country with a significant number of adherents to Judaism and Islam and have no wish to get involved in any crusade to interfere with their practices and beliefs.  There are more important issues to be concerned with in this country than to engage in actions whose main outcome will be to aggravate racial, ethnic or cultural divisions.

Having said that I do often wish that many of you who live in the nice comfortable, molly-coddled cocoons of a western first world environment could be occasionally thrown into the deep end of the realities in the third world.  In this country you would soon find that the circumcision of male infants, for whatever reason, was an issue of minor consequence compared to the stark realities of some of the consequences of (voluntary) adult male circumcision.  Many African tribes practice male circumcision at the age of 15 or 16 as a ritual associated with the transition from childhood to adulthood. 

Many of these young men, particularly from the more traditional groups, are required to attend bush ‘initiation’ schools were the circumcision is done and where they have to stay until healed.  Needless to say the procedure is often carried out by individuals with little or no medical knowledge, mostly with non-sterile instruments and under unhygienic conditions.  And the results are traumatic.  Every year scores of young men end up requiring emergency medical treatment because of serious infections.  The lucky ones get there in time and can be successfully treated.  But too often gangrene has set in and in too many cases surgeons are faced with no option but to conduct penile amputations in order to prevent death.  One of the major teaching hospitals near here has in fact pioneered and successfully carried out a number of penile transplants in an attempt to allow a normal future sexual life for such individuals.

So if you want an issue to get justifiably angry about, circumcision of infants pales into insignificance compared to this.               

[Bubbles]

People are being stabbed and run over and you are all worrying about cutting off a flap of skin?

[Shaker]

People are being stabbed and run over and you are all worrying about cutting off a flap of skin?

1. The thread was started yesterday morning, hours before the London attacks.

2. Most of us seem to find ourselves sufficiently well-rounded to be capable of being concerned with and able to discuss more than one issue at a time.

3. Referring to such a blatant abuse of the right to bodily integrity as "cutting off a flap of skin" is trite, shallow and mindlessly facile.

[floo]

People are being stabbed and run over and you are all worrying about cutting off a flap of skin?

Cutting off a flap of skin on a young child is abuse if it is not done for purely medical reasons, so should be discussed. Besides which, as Shaker points out, the topic was started before the atrocity in London.

[Sebastian Toe]

People are being stabbed and run over and you are all worrying about cutting off a flap of skin?

People are being stabbed and run over and yet here you are, chastising people about them worrying about cutting off a flap of skin?

[Robbie]

I understand what Rose is on about & its a bit harsh to chastise her for prioritising matters. She has a point.
We've discussed circumcision to death but let's face it the Jews have been doing it for centuries and how many Jewish men do you know who've had problems because of it.

I've stated I'm against it unless there is a medical reason but there are other far more important issues.

[Sebastian Toe]

I understand what Rose is on about & its a bit harsh to chastise her for prioritising matters. She has a point.

Which is....?

[Harrowby Hall]

Thinking about it my husband is circumcised, he's just 59. When we first got together I asked him if he knew why and he said he had no idea & had never thought to ask! It happened before he could remember. Obviously no ill effects, he's always been fine (as was boyrfiend i had before him  )

Let's hope the law takes this seriously as well as being sensitive to traditional beliefs. It will take time to completely eradicate the practice of circumcising babies.

Until, perhaps, the 1960s, it was the fashion - that's why it was done. I recall  hearing a conversation between my mother and another woman who had recently had a son: "Did you him done?"  And I recall a conversation between relatives when an aunt gave her reasons for not having her recently-born son circumcised.

It was the fashion. No doubt there was a kind of homespun rationale behind it along the lines of  ... oh, it prevents disease ... or ... it it's got to be done it's better it's done now. There was never any clinical intervention or advice involved, and the father was never involved in the decision (except, perhaps, the state of his penis being a consideration). Circumcision was a decision taken by the midwife and the mother, no-one else - but there is the possibility that it may have been influenced by discussion with other women.

I raised this topic because a grandmother in Nottingham had determined that a baby boy should be circumcised and had convinced a medical practitioner to do her bidding. This was contrary to the boy's mother's wishes. The police appear paralysed with indecision.

Incidentally, although there was unlikely to be any clinical involvement in the decision, the medical profession was not entirely blameless - infantile prepuces were much sought-after for their use in skin grafting.

[Robbie]

Which is....?

That there are other more important issues. Don't you agree? You probably know people who were circumcised,does it bother them?

Harrowby - infantile prepuces were much sought-after for their use in skin grafting.

Never knew that! i'M all for not wasting anything where possible.

[Harrowby Hall]

...  and how many Jewish men do you know who've had problems because of it.

I've stated I'm against it unless there is a medical reason but there are other far more important issues.

And how would you know that a Jewish man had problems because of it?

[Bubbles]

Which is....?

You can only discuss things that are on the edges. Not important things.

[Bubbles]

And how would you know that a Jewish man had problems because of it?

Because thousands and thousands of them tell us they don't.
( in fact the vast majority)
You just ignore them.

[Sebastian Toe]

You can only discuss things that are on the edges. Not important things.

"You"?

[Harrowby Hall]

Because thousands and thousands of them tell us they don't.
( in fact the vast majority)
You just ignore them.

So they speak for every one?

[Bubbles]

So they speak for every one?

Pretty much! The vast majority of Jewish men have no issue with it.

[Sebastian Toe]

That there are other more important issues. Don't you agree?

Sure there are but why can't we also discuss the less important issues?
Is it not the whole point that everyone has been hanging on about, post the attacks?
Carry on as normal, don't let them win, don't succumb to fear.
If you go around policing people like the thought-police then you are doing just that - letting them win!

[Shaker]

Pretty much! The vast majority of Jewish men have no issue with it.

And where does that leave the ones who do?

Also, tying it purely to a religion is missing the point - routine, that is to say automatic circumcision was the norm in the USA until very recently, with rates in some areas of the States reaching 90%+. That's an awful lot more circumcisions than the number of Jews and Muslims combined. This had nothing directly to do with religion (though there's no denying that it was an element in the background) and, as was pointed out earlier, was based on the extremely weird ideas of some extremely weird and unpleasant individuals such as the aforementioned J. H. Kellogg.

[Bubbles]

Sure there are but why can't we also discuss the less important issues?
Is it not the whole point that everyone has been hanging on about, post the attacks?
Carry on as normal, don't let them win, don't succumb to fear.
If you go around policing people like the thought-police then you are doing just that - letting them win!

When you can't discuss something, that's thought police.

Why should the vast majority of Jewish men conform to what you think about it, when it isn't something in your life?

Why should they accept your view there is a problem with it, when they have no problem with it?

You are being the thought police, by dictating to them how they should feel about it, instead of listening to what THEY have to actually say on it?

It's not really your business.

Not unless you are Jewish.

[Bubbles]

To keep on about another mans foreskin, and use that against them, when they are happy not to have it, is harassment imo.

To the point that it could be seen as antisemitism, if it's bad enough.

[Sebastian Toe]

When you can't discuss something, that's thought police.

Why should the vast majority of Jewish men conform to what you think about it, when it isn't something in your life?

Why should they accept your view there is a problem with it, when they have no problem with it?

You are being the thought police, by dictating to them how they should feel about it, instead of listening to what THEY have to actually say on it?

It's not really your business.

Not unless you are Jewish.

Are you Jewish?

[Shaker]

To keep on about another mans foreskin, and use that against them, when they are happy not to have it, is harassment imo.

Who is doing that? No one that I've seen.

However, plenty of men are not happy about it and consider it an abusive violation of their rights - groups/organisations abound. While I'm sure you would love them to shut up and go away so that you can carry on simpering about Jewish men, they won't and neither should they.