Author Topic: Male Genital Mutilation  (Read 78975 times)

Bubbles

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #75 on: June 04, 2017, 10:05:58 PM »
The difference between circumcision and FGM for Gordon who appears not to know

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2011/jun/15/male-circumcision-ban-health-religion-debate

Gordon

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #76 on: June 04, 2017, 10:06:33 PM »
Yes it is a human right, the freedom to practice their religion.

Jews are allowed to circumcise their babies.

In the UK and in many other countries as well.

So they are: time they were stopped from doing so.

Bubbles

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #77 on: June 04, 2017, 10:09:40 PM »
But male genital mutilation is OK?

It's "circumcision" not " male genital mutilation" changing the term to an emotional one doesn't change the fact that FGM and circumcision are different things.

It's trying to make the term emotive to cover the lack of a good argument.


Bubbles

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #78 on: June 04, 2017, 10:11:16 PM »
So they are: time they were stopped from doing so.

That's why human rights are there for minority groups.

So they get heard.

No one cares about your opinion, Gordon.


Shaker

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #79 on: June 04, 2017, 10:12:43 PM »
Yes it is a human right, the freedom to practice their religion.
Except that when imposed upon another - in this case a subject incapable of informed consent - it's no longer about freedom to practice a religion but enforcing religion on one who can't offer an opinion as to whether they want it or not. If this were only about consenting adults practising religion then people can happily lop off whatever bits of themselves they like. They can decapitate themselves for all I care. However, when you bring in another party, that's when rights start to be infringed.

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Jews are allowed to circumcise their babies.

In the UK and in many other countries as well.
They should not be.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #80 on: June 04, 2017, 10:13:12 PM »
That's why human rights are there for minority groups.
But you don't seem to care about minorities when the minority consists of men who object to having been circumcised (i.e #50, #57, #64).

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No one cares about your opinion, Gordon.
I do.

Aside from you, who cares about yours?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2017, 10:16:33 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Gordon

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #81 on: June 04, 2017, 10:13:58 PM »
The difference between circumcision and FGM for Gordon who appears not to know

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2011/jun/15/male-circumcision-ban-health-religion-debate

I'm well aware of the difference thanks, and I suggest you read this opinion piece again since it also deploys the argument from tradition and is written by, as the author notes in the piece, an orthodox jew: do you think he might be biased at all?

Bubbles

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #82 on: June 04, 2017, 10:17:40 PM »
I'm well aware of the difference thanks, and I suggest you read this opinion piece again since it also deploys the argument from tradition and is written by, as the author notes in the piece, an orthodox jew: do you think he might be biased at all?

Yes, he is a man who has been circumcised and sees no problem with it.

The important thing is this bit.

"As a father and an Orthodox Jew, if there was significant evidence of harm, I would not subject my child to the practice. I would also expect religious authorities to restrict male circumcision before such a ban was needed. But on the current evidence, a ban is unnecessary."

And this bit

"Banning male circumcision would have an enormous effect on religious practice. In Judaism, circumcision is one of the most basic requirements of the religion, although it should be noted that Jewish law prohibits circumcision if it would be unsafe for the child.

That said, just because a custom is old and religiously significant should not make it immune to the law. "


For Jews to stop performing circumcisions you need to clearly show it is unsafe for it to be performed.

Doctors and the medical authorities and the WHO seem to disagree with the view that it is harmful.

So you need to convince doctors and professionals that it is.

If you can't , then that's because it's not.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2017, 10:22:34 PM by Rose »

Gordon

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #83 on: June 04, 2017, 10:17:56 PM »
That's why human rights are there for minority groups.

So they get heard.

No one cares about your opinion, Gordon.

So, how are these human rights delivered for those who cannot express themselves to consent, such as little boys about to be mutilated?

You seem to be avoiding that particular aspect.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2017, 10:26:47 PM by Gordon »

BeRational

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #84 on: June 04, 2017, 10:22:56 PM »
Yes, he is a man who has been circumcised and sees no problem with it.

The important thing is this bit.

"As a father and an Orthodox Jew, if there was significant evidence of harm, I would not subject my child to the practice. I would also expect religious authorities to restrict male circumcision before such a ban was needed. But on the current evidence, a ban is unnecessary."

I think the time has come to be less tolerant of bat shit crazy religious traditions that cause harm.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Bubbles

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #85 on: June 04, 2017, 10:24:34 PM »
So, where how are these human rights delivered for those who cannot express themselves to consent, such as little boys about to be mutilated?

You seem to be avoiding that particular aspect.

No, little boys grow up to be men with an opinion which disagrees with yours.

BeRational

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #86 on: June 04, 2017, 10:25:24 PM »
No, little boys grow up to be men with an opinion which disagrees with yours.

When they are men, they can decide for themselves.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Gordon

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #87 on: June 04, 2017, 10:26:17 PM »
Yes, he is a man who has been circumcised and sees no problem with it.

The important thing is this bit.

"As a father and an Orthodox Jew, if there was significant evidence of harm, I would not subject my child to the practice. I would also expect religious authorities to restrict male circumcision before such a ban was needed. But on the current evidence, a ban is unnecessary."

Super: but that is his opinion, and he doesn't address the problem of circumcision (which is irreversible) being imposed on boys and no amount of post-hoc rationalisation changes that.

As I said he, and you, are advancing a fallacious argument from tradition and it seems that in terms of human rights you seem to think this should extend to the right of adults to mutilate children on the basis of religious tradition alone: after all, if it's such a good idea why not wait until these boys are adult and can give informed consent?   

Bubbles

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #88 on: June 04, 2017, 10:28:58 PM »
I think the time has come to be less tolerant of bat shit crazy religious traditions that cause harm.

As I said, WHO and other medical experts don't agree it causes harm.

I value their qualified opinion over yours.

If you see minority groups as " bat shit crazy religious traditions" it says more about you than it does them.

You would just be dismissed as an antisemite and bigot because you are disregarding the opinion of medical experts and WHO.




BeRational

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #89 on: June 04, 2017, 10:31:21 PM »
As I said, WHO and other medical experts don't agree it causes harm.

I value their qualified opinion over yours.

If you see minority groups as " bat shit crazy religious traditions" it says more about you than it does them.

You would just be dismissed as an antisemite and bigot because you are disregarding the opinion of medical experts and WHO.

Are you happy for me to practice whatever I dream up as my religious practice and subject you to it, as long as some other body says it does not cause harm?

Or would you like to give consent?
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Gordon

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #90 on: June 04, 2017, 10:32:50 PM »
No, little boys grow up to be men with an opinion which disagrees with yours.

Kinda too late then though, and as the article you linked to shows their default involvement in such traditions during their childhood can exert an influence that, as adults, allows them to think mutilating children is fine.

Surprised to see you defending such barbarism: wouldn't be me.

 

Bubbles

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #91 on: June 04, 2017, 10:33:08 PM »
Super: but that is his opinion, and he doesn't address the problem of circumcision (which is irreversible) being imposed on boys and no amount of post-hoc rationalisation changes that.

As I said he, and you, are advancing a fallacious argument from tradition and it seems that in terms of human rights you seem to think this should extend to the right of adults to mutilate children on the basis of religious tradition alone: after all, if it's such a good idea why not wait until these boys are adult and can give informed consent?

I have no issue if that's what someone wants to do, but I do have an issue with people going against the opinions of the WHO and medical opinion to take a swipe at what they see as " bat shit crazy religious traditions" without any real meaningful evidence.

If WHO found it didn't cause harm, and other qualified doctors  who are you to know better?


Bubbles

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #92 on: June 04, 2017, 10:34:17 PM »
Are you happy for me to practice whatever I dream up as my religious practice and subject you to it, as long as some other body says it does not cause harm?

Or would you like to give consent?

You are drifting off the subject and creating a straw man

BeRational

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #93 on: June 04, 2017, 10:36:28 PM »
I have no issue if that's what someone wants to do, but I do have an issue with people going against the opinions of the WHO and medical opinion to take a swipe at what they see as " bat shit crazy religious traditions" without any real meaningful evidence.

If WHO found it didn't cause harm, and other qualified doctors  who are you to know better?

Of course it causes harm.

They are now mutilated.

I suspect they too are bending over backwards not to offend bat shit crazy traditions just because they are religious.

If I dreamt one up today, would my bat shit crazy idea be given the same treatment?
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Shaker

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #94 on: June 04, 2017, 10:36:44 PM »
I have no issue if that's what someone wants to do, but I do have an issue with people going against the opinions of the WHO and medical opinion to take a swipe at what they see as " bat shit crazy religious traditions" without any real meaningful evidence.

If WHO found it didn't cause harm, and other qualified doctors  who are you to know better?

The posts on the thread were aimed at religious circumcision, stop moving the goal posts.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2017, 10:38:50 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Bubbles

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #95 on: June 04, 2017, 10:37:21 PM »
Kinda too late then though, and as the article you linked to shows their default involvement in such traditions during their childhood can exert an influence that, as adults, allows them to think mutilating children is fine.

Surprised to see you defending such barbarism: wouldn't be me.

 

I'd defend someone's right to belong to a minority group and practice their religion if they are backed up by scientific evidence that those practices cause very little harm.

In this case, they are.

Bubbles

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #96 on: June 04, 2017, 10:38:54 PM »
But the subject of this thread is religious not medical circumcision - stop moving the goalposts.

I'm talking about religious circumcision. Keep up!

BeRational

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #97 on: June 04, 2017, 10:39:13 PM »
I'd defend someone's right to belong to a minority group and practice their religion if they are backed up by scientific evidence that those practices cause very little harm.

In this case, they are.

Me too.

Belong to whatever group you like.

But I draw the line at mutilating children.

You seem not to care?
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Shaker

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #98 on: June 04, 2017, 10:39:39 PM »
I'm talking about religious circumcision. Keep up!
So why invoke the WHO/"medical opinion"/"qualified doctors" to shore up your "case" about a religious issue?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2017, 10:42:43 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #99 on: June 04, 2017, 10:40:45 PM »
I suspect they too are bending over backwards not to offend bat shit crazy traditions just because they are religious.
'Twas ever thus  :(
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.