Author Topic: Male Genital Mutilation  (Read 78775 times)

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18263
Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #175 on: June 06, 2017, 03:43:46 PM »
Just repeating myself here - if it's a public health issue such as HIV and take-up rates and risks with the procedure are lower if routinely done as babies - it 's an argument for routinely circumcising babies where circumcision is shown to be effective in controlling HIV rates.

Where is the evidence for that?

If that were the case then surely circumcising babies would be recommended medical good practice as part of wider health strategies, and I'm not aware it is here in the UK.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 04:11:27 PM by Gordon »

Harrowby Hall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5038
Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #176 on: June 06, 2017, 04:40:29 PM »
There is one other factor influencing the rate of circumcision in the USA which I don't think has been mentioned. And this is profoundly affected by culture.

It is a nice little earner.

Of course American clinicians would enthuse about the health benefits of mutilating little boys - the practice pays for their holidays (or whatever).
Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?

Robbie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7512
Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #177 on: June 06, 2017, 05:00:13 PM »
Good point HH, i s'pose those born in hospital have the procedure added on to the bill.
Same here for those who pay a surgeon privately for their sons to be circumcised, which many do.
True Wit is Nature to Advantage drest,
          What oft was Thought, but ne’er so well Exprest

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8984
Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #178 on: June 06, 2017, 05:30:08 PM »
Where is the evidence for that?
For what? The evidence for the WHO to promote circumcision in certain parts of the world as an HIV prevention / control strategy is in their report that BeRational rubbished by claiming they had been got at. The evidence that there are lower risks of complication and less cost involved if circumcision is done as a baby rather than an adult is also from their report.

Quote
If that were the case then surely circumcising babies would be recommended medical good practice as part of wider health strategies, and I'm not aware it is here in the UK.
I would think that depends on if the same public health issues and circumstances exist in the UK as the WHO is attempting to address in the report that BeRational rubbished.

In the UK we have universal access to a free health service so STDs and HIV can be treated using public funds therefore there are other effective strategies to address such public health issues as well as cultural reasons that make routine circumcision for infants not a high priority.

Also free health care means any pain medication or complications that occur from elective circumcision of teenagers or adults with their informed consent can be addressed. And there is more disposable income in the UK for individuals to pay for teenage or adult circumcision services.

In other parts of the world where public funds or personal income are severely limited, parents may make different decisions.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Robbie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7512
Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #179 on: June 06, 2017, 06:10:50 PM »
This is information I found about the WHO's stance on the subject
http://www.who.int/hiv/topics/malecircumcision/en/
True Wit is Nature to Advantage drest,
          What oft was Thought, but ne’er so well Exprest

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18263
Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #180 on: June 06, 2017, 06:14:00 PM »
For what? The evidence for the WHO to promote circumcision in certain parts of the world as an HIV prevention / control strategy is in their report that BeRational rubbished by claiming they had been got at. The evidence that there are lower risks of complication and less cost involved if circumcision is done as a baby rather than an adult is also from their report.

Does the WHO report advocate the circumcision of babies or adults/young adults?

Quote
I would think that depends on if the same public health issues and circumstances exist in the UK as the WHO is attempting to address in the report that BeRational rubbished.

In the UK we have universal access to a free health service so STDs and HIV can be treated using public funds therefore there are other effective strategies to address such public health issues as well as cultural reasons that make routine circumcision for infants not a high priority.

Also free health care means any pain medication or complications that occur from elective circumcision of teenagers or adults with their informed consent can be addressed. And there is more disposable income in the UK for individuals to pay for teenage or adult circumcision services.

In other parts of the world where public funds or personal income are severely limited, parents may make different decisions.

In that case there should be evidence that, say, affluent Jewish families would elect not to circumcise and allow their boys to decide for themselves at a later date: anecdotally at least my impression is that compliance with tradition is probably the main driver.

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18263
Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #181 on: June 06, 2017, 06:19:12 PM »
This is information I found about the WHO's stance on the subject
http://www.who.int/hiv/topics/malecircumcision/en/

While the medical case is no doubt correct, as far as I can see the targeted group are sexually active (or potentially active) males who are in a position to give informed consent and assent to the health improvement/disease control argument (as opposed to a religious one).

This is very different from circumcising newborns so as to comply with tradition.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8984
Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #182 on: June 06, 2017, 06:53:01 PM »
Does the WHO report advocate the circumcision of babies or adults/young adults?
Not that I know of. As I indicated in my initial response to Berational's opinion of the WHO report, the WHO report provides information for policy makers that parents can use as part of making an informed decision about whether to circumcise their infant son. The report looks at circumcision at different ages, states the advantages of circumcision of babies, looks at the various reasons for circumcision including HIV prevention and the report's conclusions are right there on Page 55 and 56, ending with:

"Neonatal and child circumcision is routinely practised in many countries for religious, cultural or medical reasons. The procedure is undertaken by a range of providers, with the choice of provider depending on family or religious tradition, cost, availability and perception
of service quality. As a traditional religious and cultural practice, circumcision is likely to continue to be highly prevalent around the world, and, in addition, is now being considered for HIV prevention. Every effort must be made to ensure that the procedure is undertaken as
safely as possible, by trained and experienced providers with adequate supplies and in hygienic conditions."

Quote
In that case there should be evidence that, say, affluent Jewish families would elect not to circumcise and allow their boys to decide for themselves at a later date: anecdotally at least my impression is that compliance with tradition is probably the main driver.
In certain parts of the Jewish community there is compliance with tradition and in other parts of the Jewish community there is no strict adherence to the tradition. Increasingly Jewish parents seem to feel they can dispense with some traditions, including the organisation set up in Israel to publicly oppose infant circumcision when done for purely religious or identity reasons.   
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #183 on: June 06, 2017, 07:04:38 PM »
Increasingly Jewish parents seem to feel they can dispense with some traditions, including the organisation set up in Israel to publicly oppose infant circumcision when done for purely religious or identity reasons.
That should be organisations, as there are quite a few of them - thank goodness. Better still, they're becoming increasingly effective: http://tinyurl.com/y8jagdp4

http://tinyurl.com/yarplzfb
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 07:09:20 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18263
Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #184 on: June 22, 2017, 07:50:52 PM »

Robbie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7512
Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #185 on: June 22, 2017, 08:49:00 PM »
HH flagged that up on page one of this thread though your link might be update.

Sad to think that little boy has inflammation and urinary problems because of the circumcision when it 's often carried out to put that sort of thing  right.
True Wit is Nature to Advantage drest,
          What oft was Thought, but ne’er so well Exprest

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64264
Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #186 on: June 22, 2017, 09:05:52 PM »
HH flagged that up on page one of this thread though your link might be update.

Sad to think that little boy has inflammation and urinary problems because of the circumcision when it 's often carried out to put that sort of thing  right.
Yes, this is the update to the story

Harrowby Hall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5038
Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #187 on: June 23, 2017, 08:44:44 AM »
That a prosecution appears to be under way is a relief, but that it should be the result of intervention by a barrister is a great disappointment. The Nottingham police should have initiated a prosecution at the earliest opportunity.

Let us hope that prosecuting authorities will now be active where cases of female genital mutilation are discovered.
Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?

Sassy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11080
Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #188 on: June 25, 2017, 05:05:34 AM »
It should only be allowed if medically necessary, otherwise the supposed benefits are a myth.
So those who have not accepted Christ as the Messiah, as of yet, should disobey Gods commands?
We are not having to choose because we believe Christ is the Messiah.
However Jews will go on circumcising till they come to Christ. Some Jews have come to Christ.
We have to stay out of that one.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Anchorman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16038
  • Maranatha!
Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #189 on: June 25, 2017, 09:32:31 AM »
Sass: Would you feel the same if the circuncision was carried out by some other faith practice? Because certain religions in Africa - and a few native tribes in Central/South America also carry out the practice - and their native religions have no contact with Judaism. (In the case of Africa, evidence of circumcision dates back at least five thousand years)
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

floo

  • Guest
Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #190 on: June 25, 2017, 10:49:18 AM »
So those who have not accepted Christ as the Messiah, as of yet, should disobey Gods commands?
We are not having to choose because we believe Christ is the Messiah.
However Jews will go on circumcising till they come to Christ. Some Jews have come to Christ.
We have to stay out of that one.

Cutting off the foreskin of a baby boy for no better reason than a religious belief should be illegal, as it is WRONG! >:( If god commands it, god is WRONG! >:(

Bubbles

  • Guest
Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #191 on: June 29, 2017, 06:02:38 AM »
'My son was circumcised without my consent'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-40420511


floo

  • Guest
Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #192 on: June 29, 2017, 08:22:53 AM »

Harrowby Hall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5038
Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #193 on: June 29, 2017, 08:38:16 AM »
SHOCKING! :o

If you are referring to the responses from police, social services and Members of Parliament - you are dead right!
Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?

floo

  • Guest
Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #194 on: June 29, 2017, 08:40:28 AM »
Mutilating a child in this way is always wrong, unless it is done for strict medical reasons

Harrowby Hall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5038
Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #195 on: June 29, 2017, 08:58:59 AM »
Mutilating a child in this way is always wrong, unless it is done for strict medical reasons

I don't think that anyone disputes this, Floo. What I find disturbing in this case  is the reluctance of anyone with any authority to condemn male genital mutilation - I smell an unwillingness to offend cultural sensibilities.
Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?

floo

  • Guest
Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #196 on: June 29, 2017, 09:01:34 AM »
I don't think that anyone disputes this, Floo. What I find disturbing in this case  is the reluctance of anyone with any authority to condemn male genital mutilation - I smell an unwillingness to offend cultural sensibilities.

I agree people in authority should be speaking out against it, even if it offends cultural sensibilities.

Bubbles

  • Guest
Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #197 on: June 29, 2017, 09:11:47 AM »
I don't think that anyone disputes this, Floo. What I find disturbing in this case  is the reluctance of anyone with any authority to condemn male genital mutilation - I smell an unwillingness to offend cultural sensibilities.

Probably because those in authority feel the same way I do about it.

IMO it was wrong in this reported case ( and against the law) as it requires the consent of both parents to be legal.

So on one hand the authorities need to support her, in that what was done to her son was illegal, without other people forcing the authorities to support the agenda of making the whole issue of making male circumcision illegal.

There are two issues here:

One the baby was circumcised without the mothers approval

Two, whether male circumcision of babies should be banned altogether.

I suspect the authorities disapprove of the first, but don't want to be dragged into other people's agenda of the second one.

Different issues.

I expect the authorities, smell an attempt to force their hand on a separate issue. 

By extremists.





« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 09:18:18 AM by Rose »

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64264
Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #198 on: June 29, 2017, 09:21:43 AM »
In what way us the mother attempting to force the authorities hand! Or being extremist?

Bubbles

  • Guest
Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #199 on: June 29, 2017, 09:24:34 AM »
In what way us the mother attempting too force the authorities hand! Or being extremist?

The mother isn't.

It's opinions like the ones on this message board I'm referring to.