Author Topic: Male Genital Mutilation  (Read 78720 times)

wigginhall

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #400 on: July 02, 2017, 02:58:12 PM »
When I was a kid, circumcision was pretty standard for all kids, nothing to do with Judaism.   Just normal child abuse.
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Bubbles

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #401 on: July 02, 2017, 03:06:45 PM »
When I was a kid, circumcision was pretty standard for all kids, nothing to do with Judaism.   Just normal child abuse.

Really?it was uncommon when I was a kid

floo

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #402 on: July 02, 2017, 03:12:16 PM »
When I was a kid, circumcision was pretty standard for all kids, nothing to do with Judaism.   Just normal child abuse.

Although my husband, who is three years older than me, was circumcised, none of my male cousins of whom I have quite a number, were done as far as I am aware.

Bubbles

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #403 on: July 02, 2017, 03:13:39 PM »
Although my husband, who is three years older than me, was circumcised, none of my male cousins of whom I have quite a number, were done as far as I am aware.

"Done" makes them sound as if they had a quick trip to the vets  :o

floo

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #404 on: July 02, 2017, 03:15:04 PM »
"Done" makes them sound as if they had a quick trip to the vets  :o

Ehhhhhh?

wigginhall

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #405 on: July 02, 2017, 03:27:30 PM »
Although my husband, who is three years older than me, was circumcised, none of my male cousins of whom I have quite a number, were done as far as I am aware.

Yes, my 'all' is wrong.   I was surprised when I looked at stats, about 1 in 3 boys leading up to the war, then it reduced after the war.    People became more aware of abuse towards children.   But I knew tons of non-Jewish kids who were cut, that was my point.   
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Enki

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #406 on: July 02, 2017, 03:32:10 PM »
Really?it was uncommon when I was a kid

I was circumcised when I was probably 7 or 8 years old, presumably just after the NHS was formed.(I was born in 1941). At that time it was a reasonably common medical procedure, but in the 1950s attitudes towards circumcision changed, and numbers reduced significantly.
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trippymonkey

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #407 on: July 02, 2017, 05:05:19 PM »
"Done" makes them sound as if they had a quick trip to the vets  :o

YES YES LOL ?!!?!?!?!!?? ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D

wigginhall

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #408 on: July 02, 2017, 05:39:16 PM »
There's a story that Diana refused to have Harry and William cut, as presumably she realized how cruel and abusive it is.   However, it seems pretty impossible to check this story, like many about the royals.   Also suggestions that Queen Victoria started it for royal males, in the belief that it would stop masturbation.   Don't you believe it. 
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Shaker

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #409 on: July 02, 2017, 05:44:42 PM »
I was circumcised when I was probably 7 or 8 years old, presumably just after the NHS was formed.(I was born in 1941). At that time it was a reasonably common medical procedure, but in the 1950s attitudes towards circumcision changed, and numbers reduced significantly.
IIRC there was a now famous, long and detailed paper submitted to the BMJ (Lancet? Something like that) in the late 40s or early 50s by a doctor named (also IIRC) Gardiner on the function of the foreskin which almost single-handedly helped to halt circumcision in Britain.

ETA: It was Douglas Gairdner [sic] and it was 1949 - a year after the founding of the NHS.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 05:49:58 PM by Shaker »
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Bubbles

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #410 on: July 02, 2017, 06:02:07 PM »

Shaker

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #411 on: July 02, 2017, 06:04:06 PM »
http://www.cirp.org/library/general/gairdner/
I could have posted the link too.

I'm not sure why you did so - do you imagine it bolsters your position as an apologist for enforced genital mutilation?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Bubbles

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #412 on: July 02, 2017, 06:08:01 PM »
I could have posted the link too.

I'm not sure why you did so - do you imagine it bolsters your position as an apologist for enforced genital mutilation?

No, I just went and looked it up, I was surprised you didn't put up the link.

I'm reading it at the moment, but other studies have been done since. 1940's is a while ago.

Do you have an issue with me reading through items you put up?


Shaker

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #413 on: July 02, 2017, 06:12:06 PM »
Not in the slightest. I'm just registering my surprise that you post links against your "case", that's all.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Robbie

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #414 on: July 02, 2017, 06:35:23 PM »
That's a very interesting link.
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Bubbles

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #415 on: July 03, 2017, 10:30:02 PM »
Here is another link
Male circumcision: a scientific perspective
http://jme.bmj.com/content/medethics/30/3/241.1.full.pdf





Harrowby Hall

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #417 on: July 03, 2017, 10:54:32 PM »
Here is another link
Male circumcision: a scientific perspective
http://jme.bmj.com/content/medethics/30/3/241.1.full.pdf

"This simple procedure is a lifesaver." But then, in Sub-Saharan Africa so would enhanced levels of personal hygiene.
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Robbie

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #418 on: July 03, 2017, 10:55:59 PM »
Where water is scarce.
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #419 on: July 04, 2017, 06:06:01 AM »
Do you know where Sub-Saharan Africa is?
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floo

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #420 on: July 04, 2017, 08:53:45 AM »
It is the Sahara where water is scarce.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #421 on: July 04, 2017, 09:23:26 AM »
Here is another link
Male circumcision: a scientific perspective
http://jme.bmj.com/content/medethics/30/3/241.1.full.pdf
Interesting that you did not chose to post the balancing ant-circumcision article quoted in the first paragraph.

Note too this article is from 2004 - things have moved on significantly.

Nothing in this persuades me of any health benefit that outweigh medical risks. And that is the elephant in the room - although people often glibly refer to neonatal circumcision as simple and safe the risks aren't zero.

http://www.academia.edu/6394940/Lost_Boys_An_Estimate_of_U.S._Circumcision-Related_Infant_Deaths

This article should pull people up short. For every 100,000 circumcisions there are about 250 incidences of complications and about 9 deaths - yes that's right 9 baby boys dead due to complications from circumcision. And this study is in the USA so a first world developed country with high quality medical care. Every one of those deaths is entirely preventable.

So you need to be convinced of stunning health benefits to justify those 9 deaths. So let's look at those - there tend to be three areas typically cited. HIV transmission, penile cancer and cervical cancer in women partners. Remember we are talking about circumcision here in the UK not in sub-Saharan Africa where there may be some value.

So let's assume all baby boys born this year (about 350,000) are circumcised - what would be the effect.

1. HIV transmission - the only effect reported in observational studies is on infection of men in heterosexual relationships - there is no effect on homosexual sex or on women becoming infected in heterosexual relationships. And even then most recent studies imply this effect to be largely due to cultural effect other than circumcision.

But let's work with a 50% reduction - annually in the UK across the whole population about 1500-2000 men become infected with HIV due to heterosexual sex. So that might equate to 8 less people contracting HIV - note that HIV is now readily manageable with just 600 people dying of AIDS-related illness last year. Also HIV transmission rates are falling in the heterosexual population and have been for years. Finally about 95% of the new infections were from unprotected sex - wearing a condom almost totally eradicates transmission - so much, much more effective than circumcision.

2. Penile cancer - issue is that penile cancer is ver rare - so the balancing article indicates that 300,000 cicumcisions would be required to reduce penile cancer incidence by just 1 - that's one diagnosis not one death.

3. Cervical cancer due to human papilloma virus infection - sounds compelling (bar the medical ethics issue or elective surgery on a non consenting patient that does not benefit them but does benefit others). Ah but there is a problem - all girls aged 12 and 13 in the UK are now routinely immunised against human papilloma virus. So there is unlikely to be any benefit due to improvement in medical treatment.

So to summarise - were we to circumcise all baby boys in the UK born this year the health effects would be:

300 cases of circumcision rated complications this year
30 deaths of baby boys due to circumcision rated complications this year
Possibly 8 fewer HIV infections in perhaps 20-40 years time (but medical treatment may have moved on so perhaps much less)
Possibly one less case of penile cancer in perhaps 40-70 years time (but medical treatment may have moved on so perhaps much less)
Likely no change in cervical cancer in  perhaps 40-70 years time as immunisation is now routine

And that's without bringing in the loss of penile function and detrimental effect on sexual health.

So no there aren't compelling health arguments - and those that make them need to recognise that if they argue for universal infant circumcision in the UK then they are arguing for about 30 dead baby boys a year that died needlessly.

Shaker

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #422 on: July 04, 2017, 09:25:17 AM »
... and that's what you get when a scientist who is also a statistics wonk gets on the case  :)
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

floo

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #423 on: July 04, 2017, 09:28:07 AM »
Interesting that you did not chose to post the balancing ant-circumcision article quoted in the first paragraph.

Note too this article is from 2004 - things have moved on significantly.

Nothing in this persuades me of any health benefit that outweigh medical risks. And that is the elephant in the room - although people often glibly refer to neonatal circumcision as simple and safe the risks aren't zero.

http://www.academia.edu/6394940/Lost_Boys_An_Estimate_of_U.S._Circumcision-Related_Infant_Deaths

This article should pull people up short. For every 100,000 circumcisions there are about 250 incidences of complications and about 9 deaths - yes that's right 9 baby boys dead due to complications from circumcision. And this study is in the USA so a first world developed country with high quality medical care. Every one of those deaths is entirely preventable.

So you need to be convinced of stunning health benefits to justify those 9 deaths. So let's look at those - there tend to be three areas typically cited. HIV transmission, penile cancer and cervical cancer in women partners. Remember we are talking about circumcision here in the UK not in sub-Saharan Africa where there may be some value.

So let's assume all baby boys born this year (about 350,000) are circumcised - what would be the effect.

1. HIV transmission - the only effect reported in observational studies is on infection of men in heterosexual relationships - there is no effect on homosexual sex or on women becoming infected in heterosexual relationships. And even then most recent studies imply this effect to be largely due to cultural effect other than circumcision.

But let's work with a 50% reduction - annually in the UK across the whole population about 1500-2000 men become infected with HIV due to heterosexual sex. So that might equate to 8 less people contracting HIV - note that HIV is now readily manageable with just 600 people dying of AIDS-related illness last year. Also HIV transmission rates are falling in the heterosexual population and have been for years. Finally about 95% of the new infections were from unprotected sex - wearing a condom almost totally eradicates transmission - so much, much more effective than circumcision.

2. Penile cancer - issue is that penile cancer is ver rare - so the balancing article indicates that 300,000 cicumcisions would be required to reduce penile cancer incidence by just 1 - that's one diagnosis not one death.

3. Cervical cancer due to human papilloma virus infection - sounds compelling (bar the medical ethics issue or elective surgery on a non consenting patient that does not benefit them but does benefit others). Ah but there is a problem - all girls aged 12 and 13 in the UK are now routinely immunised against human papilloma virus. So there is unlikely to be any benefit due to improvement in medical treatment.

So to summarise - were we to circumcise all baby boys in the UK born this year the health effects would be:

300 cases of circumcision rated complications this year
30 deaths of baby boys due to circumcision rated complications this year
Possibly 8 fewer HIV infections in perhaps 20-40 years time (but medical treatment may have moved on so perhaps much less)
Possibly one less case of penile cancer in perhaps 40-70 years time (but medical treatment may have moved on so perhaps much less)
Likely no change in cervical cancer in  perhaps 40-70 years time as immunisation is now routine

And that's without bringing in the loss of penile function and detrimental effect on sexual health.

So no there aren't compelling health arguments - and those that make them need to recognise that if they argue for universal infant circumcision in the UK then they are arguing for about 30 dead baby boys a year that died needlessly.

It would appear banning infant circumcision, apart from medical necessity, is the way to go.

Shaker

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #424 on: July 04, 2017, 09:32:03 AM »
It would appear banning infant circumcision, apart from medical necessity, is the way to go.
Other countries have grasped the nettle, so it can be done.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.