Author Topic: Male Genital Mutilation  (Read 78670 times)

Rhiannon

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #450 on: July 04, 2017, 07:01:07 PM »
I don't know anyone here who is against Judaism or anti religious freedom.

Gordon

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #451 on: July 04, 2017, 07:03:55 PM »
Sigh!

 :-\

Indeed - your effort was a pitiful mix of nonsense.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #452 on: July 04, 2017, 07:05:46 PM »
I don't know anyone here who is against Judaism or anti religious freedom.
Quite - but we are talking about individual religious freedom and the most important individual in question here is the child, not the parent.

Rhiannon

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #453 on: July 04, 2017, 07:07:30 PM »
Quite - but we are talking about individual religious freedom and the most important individual in question here is the child, not the parent.

Of course. But Rose seems to think that we have an anti Jewish agenda. It' not the case. Anyone can raise their children in their faith and let them choose to be circumcised as adults, if that is their preference. Nothing wrong with that.

Shaker

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #454 on: July 04, 2017, 07:11:19 PM »
I don't know anyone here who is against Judaism or anti religious freedom.
I would say though that there's a - to me, fully and entirely justified - degree of criticism of religious freedom where that freedom allows for religion to be imposed on a non-consenting subject, as is the case with circumcision. It's a tribal mark of the parent's religion (sometimes only one of them - hence this thread), not of the subject himself (who is unable to give informed consent by virtue of not being old enough).

Ritual slaughter of animals is the other area where IMO religious freedom is too free.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 07:16:11 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Bubbles

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #455 on: July 04, 2017, 07:15:48 PM »
I would say though that there's a - to me, fully and entirely justified - degree of criticism of religious freedom where that freedom allows for religion to be imposed on a non-consenting subject, as is the case with circumcsion. It's a tribal mark of the parent's religion, not of the subject himself (who is unable to give informed consent by virtue of not being old enough).

Ritual slaughter of animals is the other area where IMO religious freedom is too free.

But then shaker your agenda doesn't stop there with ritual slaughter, it extends into all sorts of areas.Hunting?  Stopping people fishing?
Stop them eating meat?

I Hate to think what else, it wouldn't just stop with ritual slaughter.

No way would I support you on such a thing, because some people have different agendas to the ones they claim, the ones they can justify, I don't trust your motivations.

You obviously object to people passing on their religion to their children,but religion is about community and families, so you'd do a good job of splitting families too.

Ok some people object to circumcision purely based on humanitarian concerns, but many don't.

Yours would just be a stepping stone, to some weird sense of depriving a child inclusion of their parents religious community.

Next you would be claiming taking a child to church was child abuse.

« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 07:25:26 PM by Rose »

Rhiannon

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #456 on: July 04, 2017, 07:18:01 PM »
I would say though that there's a - to me, fully and entirely justified - degree of criticism of religious freedom where that freedom allows for religion to be imposed on a non-consenting subject, as is the case with circumcsion. It's a tribal mark of the parent's religion, not of the subject himself (who is unable to give informed consent by virtue of not being old enough).


But this to me is not a desire to stop someone from having the freedom to practice their religion, but to prevent harm to a child.

I agree about the tribalism. It's easy to forget that one has been baptised as an infant. Not so circumcision.


Shaker

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #457 on: July 04, 2017, 07:18:54 PM »
But then shaker your agenda doesn't stop there, it extends into all sorts of areas.Hunting?  Stopping people fishing?
Stop them eating meat?
There's no likelihood of that - the slaughter of animals will continue, unfortunately.

The best we can do is ensure that it's done as humanely as slaughter ever can be. It's quite possible to enact laws against ritual religious slaughter - it can be done, so it should be.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #458 on: July 04, 2017, 07:19:05 PM »
But then shaker your agenda doesn't stop there, it extends into all sorts of areas.Hunting?  Stopping people fishing?
Stop them eating meat?

Hate to think what else, it wouldn't just stop with ritual slaughter.

No way would I support you on such a thing, because people have different agendas that the ones they can justify.
Some how come you obsession with freedom doesn't extend to the freedom to grow up with an intact penis.

Shaker

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #459 on: July 04, 2017, 07:20:49 PM »
But this to me is not a desire to stop someone from having the freedom to practice their religion, but to prevent harm to a child.
Correct - but in this case the usual whine about the freedom to practice a religion involves harm to a child.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #460 on: July 04, 2017, 07:23:22 PM »
Correct - but in this case the usual whine about the freedom to practice a religion involves harm to a child.
Exactly - there are always limits to freedoms, and this is just about the most obvious.

Rhiannon

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #461 on: July 04, 2017, 07:24:12 PM »
Some how come you obsession with freedom doesn't extend to the freedom to grow up with an intact penis.

It's odd. Rose has argued - quite rightly - for children to have the freedom to choose their own friends rather than their parents choose. Yet she doesn't support their freedom to have their penises left unmutilated.

Robbie

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #462 on: July 04, 2017, 07:24:46 PM »
This link is interesting, it's written by someone Jewish and goes into the history and why an attack on male circumcision is seen as an attack on Judaism.

I think that deals with it quite compassionately and I think changes in attitude to circumcision needs to come within the Jewish community itself.


http://www.cirp.org/library/cultural/goodman1999/

I don't feel people stomping around,  claiming Judaism is barbaric and backwards,  is at all helpful.

A very insightful article, Rose, written by a Jewish doctor who has come to believe that infant circumcision is not necessary for religious or cultural reasons. Good for her taking the time to do the research and for being prepared to go public with her findings.
True Wit is Nature to Advantage drest,
          What oft was Thought, but ne’er so well Exprest

Bubbles

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #463 on: July 04, 2017, 07:27:59 PM »
Some how come you obsession with freedom doesn't extend to the freedom to grow up with an intact penis.

Because it's part of their identity.

Only their parents can decide if it's important.


Bubbles

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #464 on: July 04, 2017, 07:29:00 PM »
A very insightful article, Rose, written by a Jewish doctor who has come to believe that infant circumcision is not necessary for religious or cultural reasons. Good for her taking the time to do the research and for being prepared to go public with her findings.

Yes I thought it was a good article, explained a lot.

🙂

Rhiannon

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #465 on: July 04, 2017, 07:29:40 PM »
Because it's part of their identity.

Only their parents can decide if it's important.

So the child themselves can't make that decision for themselves?

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #466 on: July 04, 2017, 07:31:07 PM »
Because it's part of their identity.
Surely that for them to decide.

Only their parents can decide if it's important.
Wrong - only the child can decide if it is important. That's what consent and autonomy are all about.

Bubbles

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #467 on: July 04, 2017, 07:32:42 PM »
Indeed - your effort was a pitiful mix of nonsense.

And yours was to call someone else's religion " barbaric" in a judgmental way.



Instead of trying to understand both sides.


Gordon

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #468 on: July 04, 2017, 07:35:40 PM »
And yours was to call someone else's religion " barbaric" in a judgmental way.



Instead of trying to understand both sides.

Yep - mutilating little boys so as to conform to religious superstitions is barbaric: time it was stopped.

Bubbles

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #469 on: July 04, 2017, 07:36:47 PM »
Surely that for them to decide.
Wrong - only the child can decide if it is important. That's what consent and autonomy are all about.

The child is too young to decide if it's important, so he is welcomed into his community anyway.

If people who believe it welcomes him into their community decide they should stop, then good for them.

But I won't be drawn into something that can be used to hurt them that has nothing to do with the child.

Bubbles

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #470 on: July 04, 2017, 07:39:33 PM »
Yep - mutilating little boys so as to conform to religious superstitions is barbaric: time it was stopped.

As you dismiss someone else's life as barbaric and superstitious, why should anyone think you have their best interests at heart?

Because you don't have any empathy.





Gordon

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #471 on: July 04, 2017, 07:40:50 PM »
The child is too young to decide if it's important, so he is welcomed into his community anyway.

If people who believe it welcomes him into their community decide they should stop, then good for them.

But I won't be drawn into something that can be used to hurt them that has nothing to do with the child.

It has everything to do with the child: it is the child that is being mutilated.

Bubbles

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #472 on: July 04, 2017, 07:41:53 PM »
It has everything to do with the child: it is the child that is being mutilated.

And you are not helping them one bit,  by being so judgmental about their community.


Shaker

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #473 on: July 04, 2017, 07:43:38 PM »
And you are not helping them one bit,  by being so judgmental about their community.
On the contrary: the more that people become aware of and speak out against this noxious barbarism, the quicker we're likely to reach a critical mass of public opinion such that the law will be obliged to do something about it.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Gordon

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Re: Male Genital Mutilation
« Reply #474 on: July 04, 2017, 07:45:47 PM »
And you are not helping them one bit,  by being so judgmental about their community.

There is much to be judgmental about, such as their mutilation of baby boys.

We need our legal system to do something about this abuse.