Author Topic: London Bridge Atrocity  (Read 20582 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: London Bridge Atrocity
« Reply #250 on: June 14, 2017, 09:18:46 AM »
NS,

Quote
Harm defined by how yoi define harm? Aw, so circular

No, by how dictionaries define it. You seem confused.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: London Bridge Atrocity
« Reply #251 on: June 14, 2017, 09:52:04 AM »
NS,

No, by how dictionaries define it. You seem confused.
Dictionaries aren't prescriptive. You are still being circular.

Rhiannon

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Re: London Bridge Atrocity
« Reply #252 on: June 14, 2017, 09:59:43 AM »
Rationally the best thing for the planet is for human beings to be wiped out, or at least drastically culled. Dogmatically Jains don't take life.

And as a species we are full of shit.

Bubbles

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Re: London Bridge Atrocity
« Reply #253 on: June 14, 2017, 10:12:25 AM »
Rationally the best thing for the planet is for human beings to be wiped out, or at least drastically culled. Dogmatically Jains don't take life.

And as a species we are full of shit.

It feels that way, sometimes.

But all you can do is recognise the bravery and kindness of individuals who combat such things by even giving their own lives, sometimes.

We don't hear enough about those sorts of people. 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/adel-termos-hero-father-saved-hundreds-of-lives-by-tackling-second-suicide-bomber-in-beirut-a6735776.html

« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 10:14:32 AM by Rose »

Bubbles

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Re: London Bridge Atrocity
« Reply #254 on: June 14, 2017, 10:15:44 AM »
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/uk-news/london-bridge-attack-brave-people-13136881

I suppose all you can do is not allow poisonous people to change you, and hope you would be as brave and helpful to others in need if you are unlucky enough to find yourself in a situation.


Rhiannon

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Re: London Bridge Atrocity
« Reply #255 on: June 14, 2017, 10:18:10 AM »
It feels that way, sometimes.

But all you can do is recognise the bravery and kindness of individuals who combat such things by even giving their own lives, sometimes.

We don't hear enough about those sorts of people. 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/adel-termos-hero-father-saved-hundreds-of-lives-by-tackling-second-suicide-bomber-in-beirut-a6735776.html

I wasn't talking about what we do. Generally people are ok. But we believe all kinds of bollocks.

Bubbles

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Re: London Bridge Atrocity
« Reply #256 on: June 14, 2017, 10:23:28 AM »
I wasn't talking about what we do. Generally people are ok. But we believe all kinds of bollocks.

Rhiannon,

You don't believe in all kinds of bollocks, and even if you did,  I doubt if you would let it get in the way of your common humanity in a crisis.

I don't know you, it's true.

But going by your posts, you come across as a caring person who empathises.

Provided you will put out your hand to help others in crisis, regardless, bollocks doesn't matter 😉


bluehillside Retd.

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Re: London Bridge Atrocity
« Reply #257 on: June 14, 2017, 10:55:19 AM »
NS,

Quote
Dictionaries aren't prescriptive. You are still being circular.

No-one suggested that they are, but they do provide a context in which words like "harm" can be discussed meaningfully. And that's not what circular reasoning would entail by the way.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: London Bridge Atrocity
« Reply #258 on: June 14, 2017, 11:04:40 AM »
NS,

No-one suggested that they are, but they do provide a context in which words like "harm" can be discussed meaningfully. And that's not what circular reasoning would entail by the way.
A context? Or as it actually is in your position a casual use of the ad populum fallacy.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: London Bridge Atrocity
« Reply #259 on: June 15, 2017, 03:10:01 AM »
Rationally the best thing for the planet is for human beings to be wiped out, or at least drastically culled. Dogmatically Jains don't take life.

And as a species we are full of shit.
Jains are allowed to be soldiers - there is a history of them serving in the Indian Army. Nuns and monks do not become soldiers but ordinary Jains can.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

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Sriram

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Re: London Bridge Atrocity
« Reply #260 on: June 15, 2017, 06:49:21 AM »
Hi Sriram

Not sure centuries of empire-building and warfare is relevant, given empire-building and warfare was the done thing at the time all over the world. Which particular passages in the Quran do you hold responsible for Muslim invasions of India, forced conversions, the partition of India etc?

Also, I would expect that a 7th century message regulating human behaviour would need to regulate violence if it was going to be remotely useful or relevant - similarly Hindu religious books promote violence in certain circumstances. So violent passages in a religious book are not a problem. Violence is an unavoidable and ugly part of human life - that was true in 7th Century Arabia and it is true today, regardless of religion or political beliefs. Yes, some individuals can avoid violence and be pacifists but only because other individuals are prepared to fight on behalf of the pacifists.

Not sure what you mean by Islam teaching disregard for other people's beliefs. The Quran is a message that promotes monotheism and worship of an undefinable supernatural entity, and regards idol worship as incompatible with this concept so it is going to say that that the worship of idols is wrong. It wouldn't be much of a message in support of monotheism if it says a trinity or polytheism or idol worship is ok too. If that's what you mean by disregard then yes I agree the Quran teaches disregard of certain beliefs that are incompatible with beliefs promoted by the Quran. It also teaches that it is up to individuals to freely accept or reject the message of the Quran. Those who reject the message presumably disregard the beliefs about Allah's punishment for polytheism or idol worship on a Day of Judgement. So not really sure what the problem is about disregarding particular beliefs - we all disregard certain beliefs that other people hold.

Regarding Muslims taking responsibility - I am a Muslim. What would be an example of me taking responsibility for the Muslim invasions of India or the attack on London Bridge? How do you as a Hindu show you take responsibility for the murder of Gandhi by the Hindu nationalist, Nathuram Vinayak Godse? You probably already know the speech Godse gave the court during his trial:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qFsSho6YFpkNRFjrUdn0sjV_pI_jfUyamVtn1hsbOAM/edit?hl=en_US



Hi Gabriella,

Deep faith can have many positive outcomes such as we have seen among Christian Missionaries.  But if it always has only negative outcomes in the form of destruction, killings and so on...there is something amiss there. 

It is not as if such atrocities by Muslims have been isolated incidents or specific to a region or a period in time. No! They have been almost a natural part of Islam from its origins till date, across the world.... regardless of what the Koran may or may not say.

Individual terrorists and organisations like ISIS are only symptoms of a deeper problem. What the problem is, is something only those Muslims who are free from this destructive mindset can and should analyse.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 06:51:35 AM by Sriram »

Rhiannon

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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: London Bridge Atrocity
« Reply #262 on: June 15, 2017, 10:43:25 AM »


Hi Gabriella,

Deep faith can have many positive outcomes such as we have seen among Christian Missionaries.  But if it always has only negative outcomes in the form of destruction, killings and so on...there is something amiss there. 

It is not as if such atrocities by Muslims have been isolated incidents or specific to a region or a period in time. No! They have been almost a natural part of Islam from its origins till date, across the world.... regardless of what the Koran may or may not say.

Individual terrorists and organisations like ISIS are only symptoms of a deeper problem. What the problem is, is something only those Muslims who are free from this destructive mindset can and should analyse.
Hi Sriram - yes if you choose to be ignorant of historical context, I can see why you would reach that conclusion.

If Muslims were the only people empire-building in certain parts of the world during the periods of history you are referring to then you would have a point about Islam. If 7th century Arabia was a a peaceful place and there had not been an ongoing war between the Byzantine empire and the Persian empire on its borders for most of the 6th century and early part of the 7th century, your theory about warmongering Muslims would have some credibility.

Also, coming to modern times, if oil had not been discovered in the Middle East, if European colonialism and the Cold War hadn't happened, your above opinion might be worth considering.

But given the historical facts, your sweeping generalisations about Islam e.g. "it always has only negative outcomes in the form of destruction, killings and so on" has nothing of any substance worth discussing. That you feel this way about Islam and Muslims is your problem, which you will have to take responsibility for and see if you can tell yourself to not be so silly in future.

I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

JP

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Re: London Bridge Atrocity
« Reply #263 on: June 15, 2017, 11:48:54 AM »
Historical context or a get out of jail free card. Why constant denial, or lack of honesty. Why not just once hold your hand up and say, yes, there were times, a lot of times even.......

How can something so perfect be so flawed.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: London Bridge Atrocity
« Reply #264 on: June 15, 2017, 12:26:34 PM »
Saying Muslims were not the only people empire-building means Muslims were also empire-building, which is a bloody process whoever does it. Maybe read my posts without your usual knee-jerk prejudices. And maybe come up with some factual points about the issues and discuss them rather than waving your biased accusations of dishonesty in place of an actual argument.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

jeremyp

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Re: London Bridge Atrocity
« Reply #265 on: June 15, 2017, 12:30:36 PM »
A context? Or as it actually is in your position a casual use of the ad populum fallacy.
If you want to know the definition of a word, ad populum is not a fallacy. Words are defined by how people use them and a dictionary documents usage.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: London Bridge Atrocity
« Reply #266 on: June 15, 2017, 12:34:01 PM »
If you want to know the definition of a word, ad populum is not a fallacy. Words are defined by how people use them and a dictionary documents usage.
and if you are only talking about subjectivity then that's fine. But it doesn't make the jump from there to objectivity.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: London Bridge Atrocity
« Reply #267 on: June 15, 2017, 12:47:53 PM »
Sorry about not getting back about ONE of the Qurans or books about the Quran I read !! I've only just found one again this last few days. Translator's name is Abdullah Yusuf Ali printed by Islamic Dawah Centre International.

Don't recall you telling me it was 23 years ago you converted. If I may, when you say you were a Hindu for 13 before that, were your family Hindu?

Slight sidestep... Re Zakhir Naik & his dodgy take on Islam. Do you regard him in any good favour? I have a booklet of him comparing the main religions of Islam, Judaism, Christianity & Hinduism. MMM?!?!?? He thinks pain travels along blood vessels which is why in Islam an animal has to be bled dry to get rid of possible bacterias but the animal doesn't feel any pain ?!?!!? because it's neck has been sliced wide open. It jumps & rolls around because of muscle spasm & not a reaction to pain !!! Excuse me????
Great - I have a Yusuf Ali translation and it's also available online as well so it's easy to see if any verses you post from various websites are Yusuf Ali or some other unknown translator.

Yes my family are Hindu.

I've seen Zakir Naik on TV. He seems to have a photographic memory when it comes to quoting scriptures from different religions but a lot of his arguments are very simplistic so not a fan.

I think it's always a problem when people turn to simplistic narratives because they want certainty or easy answers rather than deal with complexity. It can lead to intolerance, and not just amongst the religious.

Bluehillside raised the issue of teaching children to question ethics at primary school level. They do teach that in Religious Studies and PSHE at my kids' school - both at primary and secondary. I think this helps create understanding between people and there should be more done in schools to challenge people's assumptions and perceptions in order to teach them that are very few certainties.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

jeremyp

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Re: London Bridge Atrocity
« Reply #268 on: June 15, 2017, 12:51:27 PM »
and if you are only talking about subjectivity then that's fine. But it doesn't make the jump from there to objectivity.
I'm merely pointing out that your invocation of ad populum was erroneous in the context of the definition of a word.
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Rhiannon

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Re: London Bridge Atrocity
« Reply #269 on: June 28, 2017, 06:12:57 PM »

Nearly Sane

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Re: London Bridge Atrocity
« Reply #270 on: June 28, 2017, 06:17:17 PM »
I'm merely pointing out that your invocation of ad populum was erroneous in the context of the definition of a word.
Which would be incorrect given the appeal to objectivity

Nearly Sane

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Re: London Bridge Atrocity
« Reply #271 on: June 28, 2017, 06:17:51 PM »

Rhiannon

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Re: London Bridge Atrocity
« Reply #272 on: June 28, 2017, 06:19:08 PM »

floo

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