An Awkward Question

[Humph Warden Bennett]

From the Indy

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/london-bridge-terrorists-imams-refuse-funeral-prayer-khuram-shazad-butt-rachid-redouane-a7774291.html

This a cross faith, and a non faith issue. Should anybody be considered so vile that no words should be said at their funeral?

[Udayana]

Don't know about "should", but if that is the way it is, then why not?

[floo]

From the Indy

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/london-bridge-terrorists-imams-refuse-funeral-prayer-khuram-shazad-butt-rachid-redouane-a7774291.html

This a cross faith, and a non faith issue. Should anybody be considered so vile that no words should be said at their funeral?

Ian Brady, for one!

[Nearly Sane]

Funerals are for those still alive.

[ad_orientem]

Funerals are for those still alive.

Says who?

[Nearly Sane]

Says who?

Well, if any dead person wants to deny the point, I await their contribution....

[Aruntraveller]

My own feeling is that a funeral should be allowed but in these cases kept private.

If the press did not make such a huge fuss about it the general public would be none the wiser. They only seem to want to whip up an hysterical reaction for their own prurient news values.

I don't know whether these sad individuals deserve a funeral. But I do think the relatives feelings need to be taken into account and however hard we find it to come to terms with this issue can't we for once as a society be better than those pathetic creatures we are giving the last rites to.

[floo]

Says who?

Well the dead aren't aware of their funeral, are they?

[ad_orientem]

Well, if any dead person wants to deny the point, I await their contribution....

You miss the point. For instance Chistians believe that the funeral rites are most definitely for the benefit of the deceased. Or are you going to gainsay that?

[Nearly Sane]

You miss the point. For instance Chistians believe that the funeral rites are most definitely for the benefit of the deceased. Or are you going to gainsay that?

Am I going to gainsay that they think it? No. Am I suggesting that they are wrong? Yes. Because it's the living ones that carry it out.

[floo]

You miss the point. For instance Chistians believe that the funeral rites are most definitely for the benefit of the deceased. Or are you going to gainsay that?

Do they, I haven't heard that? How can a dead person benefit from a funeral?

[ad_orientem]

Do they, I haven't heard that? How can a dead person benefit from a funeral?

How? Because, we believe, it helps ease the transition deceased's soul from this life into the next.

[floo]

How? Because, we believe, it helps ease the transition deceased's soul from this life into the next.

And how on earth does it do that, even in the unlikely event the human consciousness does move on into some sort of afterlife?

[ad_orientem]

And how on earth does it do that, even in the unlikely event the human consciousness does move on into some sort of afterlife?

Through the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ and the prayers of his Church.

[Shaker]

And Dumbledore.

[Robbie]

My own feeling is that a funeral should be allowed but in these cases kept private.

If the press did not make such a huge fuss about it the general public would be none the wiser. They only seem to want to whip up an hysterical reaction for their own prurient news values.

I don't know whether these sad individuals deserve a funeral. But I do think the relatives feelings need to be taken into account and however hard we find it to come to terms with this issue can't we for once as a society be better than those pathetic creatures we are giving the last rites to.

Excellent post Trentvoyager & I concur.

[Shaker]

I don't know whether these sad individuals deserve a funeral. But I do think the relatives feelings need to be taken into account and however hard we find it to come to terms with this issue can't we for once as a society be better than those pathetic creatures we are giving the last rites to.

Completely agree. Even taking religion out of the equation altogether, there's something about being the bigger person in giving a funeral to those we deem untouchable. It's about responding to barbarism with a touch (at least) of civilisation, exemplifying humanity over savagery.

[Shaker]

Funerals are for those still alive.

Not entirely.

There's also the issue of giving someone a funeral in line with their values in life. You could, given the right or wrong set of circumstances, give a confirmed and well-known atheist a full Catholic Requiem mass with all the bells and smells, or cremate a Jewish person (traditionally forbidden in Judaism). It's not as though the stiff in the box is going to complain - they're dead. But why would you do such a thing? Wouldn't that merely be rude, a vulgarity, a final way of asserting your values over ones that the dead person disagreed with and  may well have found abhorrent? How much respect does that show for the dead? None whatever, I'd say.

So I don't agree that funerals are wholly for the living, not when in such things the living can show themselves to be a bunch of absolute twats.

[Nearly Sane]

Not entirely.

There's also the issue of giving someone a funeral in line with their values in life. You could, given the right or wrong set of circumstances, give a confirmed and well-known atheist a full Catholic Requiem mass with all the bells and smells, or cremate a Jewish person (traditionally forbidden in Judaism). It's not as though the stiff in the box is going to complain - they're dead. But why would you do such a thing? Wouldn't that merely be rude, a vulgarity, a final way of asserting your values over ones that the dead person disagreed with and  may well have found abhorrent? How much respect does that show for the dead? None whatever, I'd say.

So I don't agree that funerals are wholly for the living, not when in such things the living can show themselves to be a bunch of absolute twats.

But the only people who will get upset about that twattery are the living.  If people are holding a service that is inappropriate it is the living choosing it and being affected by it.

[floo]

Through the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ and the prayers of his Church.

And that means what in reality?

[floo]

Not entirely.

There's also the issue of giving someone a funeral in line with their values in life. You could, given the right or wrong set of circumstances, give a confirmed and well-known atheist a full Catholic Requiem mass with all the bells and smells, or cremate a Jewish person (traditionally forbidden in Judaism). It's not as though the stiff in the box is going to complain - they're dead. But why would you do such a thing? Wouldn't that merely be rude, a vulgarity, a final way of asserting your values over ones that the dead person disagreed with and  may well have found abhorrent? How much respect does that show for the dead? None whatever, I'd say.

So I don't agree that funerals are wholly for the living, not when in such things the living can show themselves to be a bunch of absolute twats.

I don't attend funerals these days as I don't find them meaningful for me, even if I was fond of the dead person in life.

[Shaker]

But the only people who will get upset about that twattery are the living.

Well, yes.

If people are holding a service that is inappropriate it is the living choosing it and being affected by it.

That's what I said, yes.

[Nearly Sane]

Well, yes.
That's what I said, yes.

In which case whatever happens, funerals are for the living.

[Sriram]

All humans in all communities around the world have held funerals since ancient times.  Even some animals like elephants are said to 'mourn' their dead and spend some time at the site of the dead. Funerals have various functions...

1. They are supposed to ease the passage of the dead into the other world, through various religious rites.

2. The dead are believed to be 'alive' and watching the funeral. All special attention and good words are said to make them happy.

3. The bereaved are said to have a psychological benefit due to the funeral and the support of people around them.

[Shaker]

In which case whatever happens, funerals are for the living.

No. I said that too.