An Awkward Question

[BeRational]

All humans in all communities around the world have held funerals since ancient times.  Even some animals like elephants are said to 'mourn' their dead and spend some time at the site of the dead. Funerals have various functions...

1. They are supposed to ease the passage of the dead into the other world, through various religious rites.

2. The dead are believed to be 'alive' and watching the funeral. All special attention and good words are said to make them happy.

3. The bereaved are said to have a psychological benefit due to the funeral and the support of people around them.

I do not think the dead are believed to be alive!

[Sriram]

I do not think the dead are believed to be alive!

What do you mean? You do not think that the dead are alive or you do not think the dead are believed to be alive?

The former is ok. The latter is not. There are billions of people who believe that the dead are 'alive' somewhere else.

[BeRational]

What do you mean? You do not think that the dead are alive or you do not think the dead are believed to be alive?

The former is ok. The latter is not. There are billions of people who believe that the dead are 'alive' somewhere else.

I do not think dead people are believed to be alive by many people in Europe.

It is after all, a crazy idea.

[Sriram]

I do not think dead people are believed to be alive by many people in Europe.

It is after all, a crazy idea.

That is just your opinion and you are welcome to it.  Btw...I don't think you are right in saying that many people in Europe do not believe that the dead are 'alive'. I am sure many people do believe that!

[Rhiannon]

But the only people who will get upset about that twattery are the living.  If people are holding a service that is inappropriate it is the living choosing it and being affected by it.

I might be getting off topic but thuscreminds me if the discussions about human remains on display in museums. Doesn't affect the living and yet it feels so wrong to me, because almost certainly the dead person would have come from a culture where there were definite beliefs about the importance of burial or other rites.

And yet why should I care?

[Rhiannon]

From the Indy

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/london-bridge-terrorists-imams-refuse-funeral-prayer-khuram-shazad-butt-rachid-redouane-a7774291.html

This a cross faith, and a non faith issue. Should anybody be considered so vile that no words should be said at their funeral?

Nobody should feel that they have to conduct a service for someone if they feel that to do so would be a travesty of their roles and beliefs.

[Nearly Sane]

I might be getting off topic but thuscreminds me if the discussions about human remains on display in museums. Doesn't affect the living and yet it feels so wrong to me, because almost certainly the dead person would have come from a culture where there were definite beliefs about the importance of burial or other rites.

And yet why should I care?

it doesn't matter why here, it matters that you do. The dead on the other hand....

[BeRational]

That is just your opinion and you are welcome to it.  Btw...I don't think you are right in saying that many people in Europe do not believe that the dead are 'alive'. I am sure many people do believe that!

I doubt it because we are better than that!

[Nearly Sane]

I doubt it because we are better than that!

Who is 'we'? Who are 'we'  better than that? (Note mebbe avoid an an populum fallacy)

[Robbie]

I doubt it because we are better than that!

Christians believe in 'everlasting life' in the spiritual sense as do many other religions. I wonder if there are reliable statistics about this, all I could find was something from the Pew Research Centre who seem to have polled sections of the population in many european countries (not including the UK!), making comparisons with the USA.

Nobody should feel that they have to conduct a service for someone if they feel that to do so would be a travesty of their roles and beliefs.

Quite right. In any case if one or even several refuse there will always be someone else, somewhere, who will disagree and be prepared to do it & they won't be likely to talk to the press about it so works out better in the end.

[Owlswing]

My own feeling is that a funeral should be allowed but in these cases kept private.

Seeing as it is the 'ministers' of the religion to which the dead terrorists belonged who are refusing them the funeral rites practised by and for the adherents of that religion, surely it is none of the business of Christians, Pagans or atheists what they choose to do or not to do about the bodies of these particular Muslims?

[Harrowby Hall]

From the Indy

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/london-bridge-terrorists-imams-refuse-funeral-prayer-khuram-shazad-butt-rachid-redouane-a7774291.html

This a cross faith, and a non faith issue. Should anybody be considered so vile that no words should be said at their funeral?

Getting back to the original subject. how does this idea differ from the old Christian practice of not allowing people who committed suicide to be buried in consecrated ground?

[Robbie]

Seeing as it is the 'ministers' of the religion to which the dead terrorists belonged who are refusing them the funeral rites practised by and for the adherents of that religion, surely it is none of the business of Christians, Pagans or atheists what they choose to do or not to do about the bodies of these particular Muslims?

Good point owlswing & i think you are right but,as discussed, we only hear about those 'ministers' who won't do it, there are bound to be some who will but they won't make publicity out of it.

[quote/]Harrowby Hall - Getting back to the original subject. how does this idea differ from the old Christian practice of not allowing people who committed suicide to be buried in consecrated ground?[end quote]

It's certainly just as unforgiving & judgemental HH. Mens rules, not God's.

Honestly i believe when murderers and the like die and are buried or cremated,no-one outside the funeral directors who surely have a confidentiality code, need to know anything about the time and date or who officiates if anyone. Then nobody would be taking umbrage & certainly no religious ministers would be giving opinions to the press. It could easily be done discreetly. Could be done while the press is still up in arms about the murders or making headlines with the murderers' life stories!

[Aruntraveller]

Seeing as it is the 'ministers' of the religion to which the dead terrorists belonged who are refusing them the funeral rites practised by and for the adherents of that religion, surely it is none of the business of Christians, Pagans or atheists what they choose to do or not to do about the bodies of these particular Muslims?

I take your point - but I was replying to the original post that opened it out to cross faith and no faith posters. Which is why I framed my thoughts in that particular way.

Obviously if we restricted ourselves in what we posted about, the board would be even quieter than it is. But I will now restrict myself to only commenting on atheist issues - I expect to see you only on the pagan board. Except I won't be there because I shouldn't comment on it.

[Rhiannon]

I've never thought that the Muslim clerics who refuse to say rites for suicide bombers are seeking publicity. Rather they are trying to send a message about the unacceptability of linking their faith to terrorism and murder.

[Sebastian Toe]

I've never thought that the Muslim clerics who refuse to say rites for suicide bombers are seeking publicity.

ok....

Rather they are trying to send a message about the unacceptability of linking their faith to terrorism and murder.

Which is publicity is it not?

[Owlswing]

I take your point - but I was replying to the original post that opened it out to cross faith and no faith posters. Which is why I framed my thoughts in that particular way.

Obviously if we restricted ourselves in what we posted about, the board would be even quieter than it is. But I will now restrict myself to only commenting on atheist issues - I expect to see you only on the pagan board. Except I won't be there because I shouldn't comment on it.

Honestly Trent - I really thought that you had, one, a thicker skin than that, and two, were inviting the opinions of the adherents of all faiths and none.

I gave my opinion - mine, no-one elses, on the specifics of the case in question.

Again my opinion, and not expected to be approved of by more than one person in any group of one million persons of any or all or no faith, I would stuff then as fuull of bacon as I couls and then roast thjem over an open fire pit and hang them from a tree for the birds to feast on!

Now you've, and any other interested parties, got something worth bleating about - go to it!     

[jeremyp]

You miss the point. For instance Chistians believe that the funeral rites are most definitely for the benefit of the deceased.

What is the benefit to the dead?

Or are you going to gainsay that?

I am.

[ad_orientem]

What is the benefit to the dead?

I already explained this. We believe that it helps ease the transition of the soul from this life to the next.

I am.

What, that we don't believe that?

[floo]

I already explained this. We believe that it helps ease the transition of the soul from this life to the next.


What, that we don't believe that?

How does it help, can you explain?

[ad_orientem]

I explained that earlier on too.

[floo]

I explained that earlier on too.

But that wasn't a meaningful explanation.

[ad_orientem]

But that wasn't a meaningful explanation.

I can't be accountable for your lack of comprehension.

[floo]

I can't be accountable for your lack of comprehension.

Well help me comprehend it then.

[trippymonkey]

So what exactly goes MISSING when we reach that stage we call death & after when we are considered dead?

Nick