West London Fire

[Sriram]

This is appalling.
It hasn't had a lot of news coverage which reminds me of the fire in a council block in Camberwell a few years ago. That too was only briefly mentioned.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Lakanal_House_tower_block_fire
At the time it seemed as though few cared though years later, Southwark Council were held responsible.

The Grenfell disaster is far worse in terms of casualties and lost lives so will probably engender more publicity.

A terrible tragedy and quite scandalous that it happened.

It has been covered by BBC and CNN all day since morning, besides other channels. It is a terrible blaze that has engulfed almost the whole building. Reminded me of the US WTC buildings.

Its not a small fire. I understand nearly 500 people (residents asleep) in the building could have been killed.

[Nearly Sane]

Interesting article on the type of cladding.


https://www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/sandwich-panels-and-the-dubai-hotel-fire/17407

[Rhiannon]

Nice piece from Newsthump.

http://newsthump.com/2017/06/14/britain-reminded-that-firefighters-are-absolutely-remarkable/

[Dicky Underpants]

Awful! Fire alarms didn't go off.

London fire: Flames engulf tower block
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40269625

I heard a plausible explanation for the lack of fire alarms in a building of this type. With one single stairway, a universal alarm would set off a mass panic which would result in an even worse situation with hordes of people trying to crowd down the narrow staircase. Likewise, localised alarms could be disabled or ignored (thinking it was just burned toast, or similar), even in a disastrous situation like this.
What is baffling is the fact that the fire was supposed to have been contained by each individual flat being effectively fireproofed, so the fire could not spread - and then the police could direct the escape operations with relative calm. That the fire was not locally contained is tragically obvious, and though the company in charge of fire-proofing has given assurance that all guidelines were strictly followed, somebody has got a lot of fessing-up to do, unless all the experts have misunderstood something basic about the laws of physics.

[Shaker]

Nice piece from Newsthump.

http://newsthump.com/2017/06/14/britain-reminded-that-firefighters-are-absolutely-remarkable/

Fuck me ... that last paragraph is a bit of a 

[Nearly Sane]

Fuck me ... that last paragraph is a bit of a 

satire, speaking truth to power, is the point.

[Nearly Sane]

Boris

https://skwawkbox.org/2017/06/14/video-boris-johnson-telling-fire-safety-panel-get-stuffed-grenfell/

[floo]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news

12 people are now known to have died.

[Rhiannon]

Just reading eye witness accounts. The suffering is hard to comprehend.

[wigginhall]

Word on the street - a lot of anger.  First, if this had been a block in Chelsea, there would have been sprinkler systems, better alarms, more than one stair-case, and so on.  Second, residents had complained about problems with fire safety, especially after a previous fire in a different block (Lakanal House), where the coroner had issued a Rule 43 letter, which warns other areas to improve safety.   People said that Lakanal House was a 'tragedy waiting to happen'.     In that case, the council were prosecuted.  Another tragedy waiting to happen?

[Rhiannon]

The hotel fire in Dubai should have been warning enough. I still can't believe that flammable cladding is used. Wtf?

[Nearly Sane]

From a week ago


http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/election-tories-labour-corbyn-fire-service-dangerous-cuts-a7773826.html

[Humph Warden Bennett]

FTR Twenty years ago I worked for a medium size business in Greenwich (sixty people).

The CEO sealed off one of the Fire Exits because of "security concerns".

THAT is the mentality behind this tragedy.

[jeremyp]

And clearly the cladding was flammable.

Sorry, do we have evidence for that yet? It did apparently pass a fire inspection before it went on.

There seems to be  a lot of speculation on this thread. I think we should really find out what happened before we start lynching people.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Quote. Nov 2016

It is a truly terrifying thought but the Grenfell Action Group firmly believe that only a catastrophic event will expose the ineptitude and incompetence of our landlord, the  KCTMO, and bring an end to the dangerous living conditions and neglect of health and safety legislation that they inflict upon their tenants and leaseholders. We believe that the KCTMO are an evil, unprincipled, mini-mafia who have no business to be charged with the responsibility of  looking after the every day management of large scale social housing estates and that their sordid collusion with the RBKC Council is a recipe for a future major disaster.

Unfortunately, the Grenfell Action Group have reached the conclusion that only an incident that results in serious loss of life of KCTMO residents will allow the external scrutiny to occur that will shine a light on the practices that characterise the malign governance of this non-functioning organisation. We believe that the KCTMO have ensured their ongoing survival by the use of proxy votes at their Annual General Meeting that see them returned with a mandate of 98% in favour of the continuation of their inept and highly dangerous management of our homes. It is no coincidence that the 98% is the same figure that is returned by the infamous Kim Jong-un of North Korea who claims mass popularity while reputedly enslaving the general population and starving the majority of his people to death.

It is our conviction that a serious fire in a tower block or similar high density residential property is the most likely reason that those who wield power at the KCTMO will be found out and brought to justice! The Grenfell Action Group believe that the KCTMO narrowly averted a major fire disaster at Grenfell Tower in 2013 when residents experienced a period of terrifying power surges that were subsequently found to have been caused by faulty wiring. We believe that our attempts to highlight the seriousness of this event were covered up by the KCTMO with the help of the RBKC Scrutiny Committee who refused to investigate the legitimate concerns of tenants and leaseholders.

We have blogged many times on the subject of fire safety at Grenfell Tower and we believe that these investigations will become part of damning evidence of the poor safety record of the KCTMO should a fire affect any other of their properties and cause the loss of life that we are predicting:

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/kctmo-playing-with-fire/


So the landlords knew, it had already been raised.

Apparently the authorities  are unable to reach the landlords.

I expect they have done a runner.

Horrible to think residents weren't listened to - that there are no mechanisms to force local councils or private management organisations to take action to prevent tragedies like these. One of the residents interviewed on the news said they had referred the issue to their local MP but still could not force any measures to be taken to protect tenants.

[Sriram]

I think most of the residents were Muslims and blacks belonging to poorer sections. Very sad!

[Robbie]

I think you're rght there sririam. I'd like to believe that factor was irrelevant but don't think it is.

From me not seeing much on the news about it yesterday morning, it has since been all over the news. Just been watching the latest on TV, glad it is having more publicity than the similar tragedy in SELondon a few years back.

Here's a  Guardina's article from yesterday:-

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/14/the-guardian-view-on-the-grenfell-tower-fire-never-again

& today:- https://www.theguardian.com/uk

[Rhiannon]

Sorry, do we have evidence for that yet? It did apparently pass a fire inspection before it went on.

There seems to be  a lot of speculation on this thread. I think we should really find out what happened before we start lynching people.

I didn't suggest 'lynching' anyone. Aside from watching it on tv, eyewitness testimony and that of fire experts (also on tv) that were describing the cladding as 'flammable', there was someone giving the general spec for the panels (can't remember where) and all but the very surface is flammable plastic.

It seems these are standard issue, so would have passed building regs, and used on buildings the world over. They've been linked to fires before and some have described them as a disaster in waiting. Maybe the fact that they were used to reclad an existing building is why this has been so terrible; the failings on the part of the management company, if there were any, appear to be to do with internal matters such as fire doors.

It may be global practice, but it still staggers me that anyone ever thought cladding high rise buildings in flammable material is a good idea.

[floo]

Much to people's credit many are rallying around to help the poor homeless inhabitants of the Tower block. This sort of terrible incident brings out the good in others.

[Rhiannon]

More about cladding and so forth here.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/14/disaster-waiting-to-happen-fire-expert-slams-uk-tower-blocks

[Sriram]

Frankly, I was a bit shocked at the way the fire was being put out.   Though they say there were number of fire engines, only about 3 or 4 hoses were being directed at the fires  which hardly reached half way to the top. I thought with current technology, they would use helicopters and maybe drones in whatever way possible.

Technology isn't always what we think it is, I suppose.

[Rhiannon]

I'd heard that the dry risers in the building weren't working. Source for this is eyewitnesses who escaped from the building.

[Bubbles]

Sorry, do we have evidence for that yet? It did apparently pass a fire inspection before it went on.

There seems to be  a lot of speculation on this thread. I think we should really find out what happened before we start lynching people.

No not a lot of speculation.

Whether it had a "so called" fire inspection before it went on is irrelevant, if there is sufficient evidence that that type of cladding is a problem ( and someone posted a link that says there is) it should never have been put on there in the first place.

Moderator: content removed
I guess some people will want to pass it off and cover it up. I.e. Don't rock the boat, don't question the status quo.

The blog by the Grenfell action group was written in Nov 2016, and once the official experts have assessed what has happened, heads need to roll.

People need to be punished!


Moderator: content removed



It needs to be used as an example to discourage authorities and landlords from taking shortcuts and not listening to the obviously serious claims made by the residents.

No more families should be burnt to death in a building that goes up like a Roman candle.

You just don't like the status quo being rocked, I suppose you would always look to " save face" of the people who made the decisions that led to this.

People should be able to go to sleep in their homes at night feeling that others have done the best they can to reduce risks.

With the way that building went up, the loss of life, and feelings of the residents before this tragic event, they obviously weren't considered at all.

Kensington is one of the wealthiest regions in the UK, and you can bet it wouldn't have  happened in more expensive areas of it.

But these are " council tenants" and some even dare to be " more than slightly tanned" I don't think their " rights " were considered in the same breath as the rich suburbs.

It's not nice to say that, but we need to stop people brushing "other people's rights"under the mat because they come from "poor communities" who are considered worth less, even if it's not explicitly stated.
It's not just racist because it happens to " poor" white people too, others walk all over them.

I can see the attitude around me, let alone in Kensington. It needs to be discussed, so it doesn't happen again.



.

[floo]

Frankly, I was a bit shocked at the way the fire was being put out.   Though they say there were number of fire engines, only about 3 or 4 hoses were being directed at the fires  which hardly reached half way to the top. I thought with current technology, they would use helicopters and maybe drones in whatever way possible.

Technology isn't always what we think it is, I suppose.

And you could do a better job could you?

[Aruntraveller]

And you could do a better job could you?

Well it certainly came as a shock to me that the London Fire authority didn't have a helicopter, Floo.

I think Sririam's points are valid and as well as looking at the probable causes of the fire e.g. the cladding - we should also be considering whether in the light of recent events that the mantra of 'doing more with less' so beloved of our austerity obsessed government is really any way to run a functioning modern society. We have the tragic example of this fire which looks in part as if it's due to a reluctance on the goverments part to act and also the recent terror attacks where a lack of community police led to a gap in intelligence with also tragic consequences. And let's not forget the £5 million Mrs May 'saved' as home secretary on not upgrading Windows XP in the NHS and the dire consequences that led to.

Incompetence on top of cuts in favour of greed.