West London Fire

[Nearly Sane]

The question of helicopters was put to fire fighters yesterday who stated that blades would have fanned the flames.

[Bubbles]

Well it certainly came as a shock to me that the London Fire authority didn't have a helicopter, Floo.

I think Sririam's points are valid and as well as looking at the probable causes of the fire e.g. the cladding - we should also be considering whether in the light of recent events that the mantra of 'doing more with less' so beloved of our austerity obsessed government is really any way to run a functioning modern society. We have the tragic example of this fire which looks in part as if it's due to a reluctance on the goverments part to act and also the recent terror attacks where a lack of community police led to a gap in intelligence with also tragic consequences. And let's not forget the £5 million Mrs May 'saved' as home secretary on not upgrading Windows XP in the NHS and the dire consequences that led to.

Incompetence on top of cuts in favour of greed.

Yes, I think all those things had an impact.

[Bubbles]

They seem to be avoiding letting us know exactly how many people are actually missing or unaccounted for.

They reckon 600-700 people were in it.

They never say how many are unaccounted for.

Perhaps they think it's better not to, ATM

Just my impression.

[floo]

They seem to be avoiding letting us know exactly how many people are actually missing or unaccounted for.

They reckon 600-700 people were in it.

They never say how many are unaccounted for.

Perhaps they think it's better not to, ATM

Just my impression.

They probably don't know as yet. It may be impossible to know for certain exactly how many bodies there are, if the heat of the fire matched that of a crematorium, and all is left is ashes.

[jeremyp]

I think most of the residents were Muslims and blacks belonging to poorer sections. Very sad!

You mean it wouldn't b e sad if it was only middle class white people that burned to death?

[jeremyp]

I didn't suggest 'lynching' anyone.

Sorry, the second part of the comment wasn't directed at you specifically. I should have made that clear. I was referring to the fact that several politically motivated posts have already attempted to lay the blame at the door of various individuals.

Aside from watching it on tv, eyewitness testimony and that of fire experts (also on tv) that were describing the cladding as 'flammable', there was someone giving the general spec for the panels (can't remember where) and all but the very surface is flammable plastic.

But it's all speculation. I have read an article that states that the panels used are fire resistant and another article that says they are fire resistant but only if installed correctly by an expert.

it still staggers me that anyone ever thought cladding high rise buildings in flammable material is a good idea.

Yes it does seem completely crazy and for that reason I am going to reserve my judgement for when experts have determined the cause of the tragedy and reported on it. In my experience, if something seems to stupid to be true, it often isn't true.

[Robbie]

I didn't read sririam's post as meant that way jeremy.
It would be sad whoever was hurt or killed but might be significant that poor people were housed in an unsafe building & it's not first time that has happened.

[floo]

A close relative owns two apartments in a tower block over looking the seafront on the south coast. They were thrilled when they moved there, as the view is FANTASTIC. Even though you have to be well off to live in those apartments, I suspect they are concerned that the structure of their block might not be as good as they hope it to be.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

They seem to be avoiding letting us know exactly how many people are actually missing or unaccounted for.

They reckon 600-700 people were in it.

They never say how many are unaccounted for.

Perhaps they think it's better not to, ATM

Just my impression.

I agree and it worries me a bit. 13 stories left to burn away. Too high? Apparently a fire was still burning on the fourth floor. All that evidence being incinerated in a continuing fire. Police and fire brigade sending dogs in. Dogs?
I'm a little worried that hundreds of people will go down as missing rather than it being remembered how they were really taken. I'm worried of stories of how they may have moved away rather than the truth which must be unpalatable and involve a few people who are neither victims or victims relatives. Frankly for the first time I fear some want us not to think of the very question you are asking.

[Rhiannon]

Do you really need an explanation of why they need to use dogs? 

Because some are trained to smell dead bodies, and many will be difficult to distinguish from burned objects, at least at first. It will make recovering the dead quicker.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Do you really need an explanation of why they need to use dogs?

Because some are trained to smell dead bodies, and many will be indistinguishable from other burned things, at least at first. It will make recovering the dead quicker.

Yes but put it with all the rest including the LFB statement on a full search ''taking weeks.''

How many in that building knew that the LFB could do nothing for them if they were above floor 13.

[Rhiannon]

Shouldn't the dry hose system have got water up to the top floors? But it didn't work.

I'm not surprised it is going to take weeks, when compared to airline crashes, for example. It isn't just recovery of bodies and identity, but where they are recovered from. It also reminds me sadly of a car crash in which a family of five died; at first only four bodies were recovered and it was only relatives telling the authorities that there was a baby in the car that led to the fifth being found.

I doubt whether accurate numbers will ever been known, but the time taken doesn't make me suspicious. Rather the opposite. The more thorough the better.

[Rhiannon]

Surely the reason they aren't releasing approximate figures is that the authorities fear civil unrest? They will delay in the hope that feelings die down. 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Surely the reason they aren't releasing approximate figures is that the authorities fear civil unrest? They will delay in the hope that feelings die down.

I suppose porkies may be called for...but i'm also afraid it should be the end of the professional line for anyone making them not now maybe later.

[Rhiannon]

I suppose porkies may be called for...but i'm also afraid it should be the end of the professional line for anyone making them not now maybe later.

I expect that a lot of careers are going to end. At the very least.

[jeremyp]

Surely the reason they aren't releasing approximate figures is that the authorities fear civil unrest? They will delay in the hope that feelings die down.

Why would there be civil unrest?

The reason they aren't releasing figures is that they don't have figures.

As for the time required to recover the bodies, it's probably going to take them some time just to make the building structurally safe. It's one thing to ask a firefighter to risk their life to rescue somebody trapped but alive. It's another thing to ask them to risk their life to recover a body.

[jeremyp]

I expect that a lot of careers are going to end. At the very least.

I'd be extremely surprised if nobody goes to prison for this.

[Harrowby Hall]

I expect that a lot of careers are going to end. At the very least.

How about this one?

http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/14/boris-johnson-slashed-londons-fire-services-in-2014-and-told-rival-politician-to-get-stuffed-6708609/

[Shaker]

That would be a start.

[jeremyp]

I agree and it worries me a bit. 13 stories left to burn away. Too high? Apparently a fire was still burning on the fourth floor.

If I was in charge of the firefighters, with no chance of their being anybody alive inside, I would not risk my men by letting them go inside for any reason.

All that evidence being incinerated in a continuing fire.

I'm pretty sure there will be enough left to discover the cause. Think about the World Trade Centre. Both towers were pretty much pulverised and yet they were still able to find out why they collapsed (inadequate application of fire retardant foam to structural floor supports).

I'm a little worried that hundreds of people will go down as missing rather than it being remembered how they were really taken.

I don't think there's any chance that whoever is responsible for this will get off the hook.

[Rhiannon]

Why would there be civil unrest?

The reason they aren't releasing figures is that they don't have figures.

As for the time required to recover the bodies, it's probably going to take them some time just to make the building structurally safe. It's one thing to ask a firefighter to risk their life to rescue somebody trapped but alive. It's another thing to ask them to risk their life to recover a body.

I agree, but people are angry.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/15/unforgivable-local-labour-mp-vents-fury-over-grenfell-tower-fire

I also agree that there isn't a prayer of a coverup on this one.

[jeremyp]

How about this one?

http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/14/boris-johnson-slashed-londons-fire-services-in-2014-and-told-rival-politician-to-get-stuffed-6708609/

What is Boris Johnson's responsibility in all this? How about getting some concrete evidence before lynching people?

Oh, and the "get stuffed" remark was directed at an assembly member who accused him of lying and he subsequently apologised for it.

[jeremyp]

I agree, but people are angry.

There's plenty to be angry about but unfortunately, being angry isn't going to make things go any faster. The last thing we want is for the recovery operation and investigation to be botched (possibly with more deaths) just because people were angry.

[Sriram]

And you could do a better job could you?

You do ask some silly questions...Floo!!! And jeremyp...you too!!

[floo]

Theresa May continues to do herself no favours. When she visited the Tower block yesterday she only spoke to the Police and Firefighters, but not to any of the victims, unlike Corbyn.