West London Fire

[Robbie]

Coincidentally my husband (Charley/Chas), put forward the idea of a kitchen appliance starting the fire,was also negative about the cladding. I wouldn't normally go - 'My husband says....' but he knows about such things being as he designs dwellings which have kitchens etc. ftited before sale. He's been quite anxious about this terrible tragedy;tho' had nothing to do with Grenfell has raised objections in the past with colleagues at his firm on the grounds of fire hazards.

Having said that i now can't put into words quite what he said which goes to show i shouldn't try & quote my husband.

Old asbestos insulation is a problem especially if it is disturbed & releases fibres into the atmosphere.

The flats where the victims were being relocated to weren't just ordinary flats, they had things like a gym and swimming pool which residents paid extra for.
Obviously the victims won't get that, but they weren't being supplied standard flats even posh standard flats hence the objections.

The objection was that they were " exclusive" luxury flats.

Those people would have objected to anyone being put in there.

Yes they can't put themselves in position who have lost everything, don't even have a duvet or pair of socks never mind losing family & friends in indescribably horrible circumstances. Plonkers is too mild a word!

[Rhiannon]

So Hotpoint join the list of those in the stocks. I wonder how anyone living in a high rise with possibly dodgy cladding and this fridge freezer tells just now. My mother lives on the 9th floor of a high rise, but their current problem is asbestos!


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40380584

Early eyewitness reports were that the resident where the fire started said that his fridge exploded. Given the poverty there I think it entirely possible it could have been old or second hand. Who knows? Testing seems sensible.

I think though that flats are supposedly designed to contain fire even if a fridge explodes. For whatever reason it escaped to the cladding and that is where the real issue began.

[Nearly Sane]

Early eyewitness reports were that the resident where the fire started said that his fridge exploded. Given the poverty there I think it entirely possible it could have been old or second hand. Who knows? Testing seems sensible.

I think though that flats are supposedly designed to contain fire even if a fridge explodes. For whatever reason it escaped to the cladding and that is where the real issue began.

Don't disagree, but the reporting and company reaction is has an 'I saw Goody Hotpoint's fridge exploding' tone. Not sure if it can be avoided with openness.

[Nearly Sane]

Sensible or OTT?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40389148

[Bubbles]

Sensible or OTT?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40389148

A bit surprised, you would think they would tell the residents first before announcing it on the BBC.

Fancy finding out by listening to the news.

Do any of the councils actually TALK to their tenants?

They don't seem to learn 

 

[Nearly Sane]

How would you manage to communicate with all the tenants before it hit the news?

[floo]

How would you manage to communicate with all the tenants before it hit the news?

Good point.

[Rhiannon]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/25/grenfell-victims-murdered-by-political-decisions-says-john-mcdonnell

[jeremyp]

Early eyewitness reports were that the resident where the fire started said...

Technically, that's hearsay, not an eye witness report. Having said that, I have seen video of the owner claiming his fridge blew up.

that his fridge exploded.

Fridges don't blow up. There's nothing in them to blow up. It may be that there was a fire that caused the gas circulation system to rupture which might give the appearance of an explosion. Or it might be hyperbole on the part of the owner.

I think though that flats are supposedly designed to contain fire even if a fridge explodes. For whatever reason it escaped to the cladding and that is where the real issue began.

That would only work as long as the window glass stayed intact.

[jeremyp]

Sensible or OTT?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40389148

I don' think they needed to get people out of their beds at two o'clock in the morning.

[jeremyp]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/25/grenfell-victims-murdered-by-political-decisions-says-john-mcdonnell

That's not at all helpful. And also an outright lie.

[Rhiannon]

That's not at all helpful. And also an outright lie.

My thoughts too. But then he's a politician.

[floo]

That's not at all helpful. And also an outright lie.

I agree, they weren't helpful at all.

[Nearly Sane]

That's not at all helpful. And also an outright lie.

Is it an outright lie? I heard the same said by residents, were they lying? It might be legally incorrect but murder in the sense of a culpable death has a more colloquial meaning. Why would be that not be applicable in a speech?

[Nearly Sane]

I agree, they weren't helpful at all.

Are they not helpful in expressing the anger of many of those who survived, many of who lost lived ones? Surely their plight deserves to be voiced by politicians?

[wigginhall]

Yes, I agree with NS.   To say that the tenants had been negligently killed would not convey the anger, that people are feeling.  I have heard the phrase 'murdered by austerity' as well.    Also reminds me of Shakespeare's 'Macbeth murders sleep'. 

[floo]

Of course people are feeling angry, but I don't think it was sensible of McDonnell to throw around accusations of murder at this stage. All the facts need to be harvested, and those responsible for this terrible tragedy held to account. If the crime of manslaughter is deemed to have been committed, they must stand trial and sent down for a very long time if found guilty.

[Nearly Sane]

Of course people are feeling angry, but I don't think it was sensible of McDonnell to throw around accusations of murder at this stage. All the facts need to be harvested, and those responsible for this terrible tragedy held to account. If the crime of manslaughter is deemed to have been committed, they must stand trial and sent down for a very long time if found guilty.

he isn't accusing individuals of murder as an offence. It's using the colloquial sense as already covered.

[wigginhall]

One problem for McDonnell is that his words will be inevitably misquoted, but presumably he has thought of that.   It communicates the sheer outrage on the streets, that fire regulations were waived, and warnings and complaints ignored.   Negligent homicide?

[Nearly Sane]

In a sense the criminal charges could well be unimportant here! Given that all of the tests on combustability have failed so far, it may simply be that there is no central responsibility. It may be, as May had it, that it has been a symptom  of how we think of social housing but even that might not be clear since there haven't been tests on privately owned buildings yet.


If there is domed systemic failure in how we approach fire regulation, then MacConnell's metaphor is accurate and is the sort of rhetoric needed to keep the pressure on ensuring change. Is it helpful to determining what happened, no. Might it be helpful to keeping the pressure on avoiding this in the future, yes.

[wigginhall]

I think the Lakanal fire will be cited in various investigations, as here a fire killed six people.   It was calculated that the cladding burned through in four minutes, and fire stops had been removed in renovations.  The coroner issued various recommendations, e.g. the fitting of sprinklers, mostly ignored.   This was 8 years ago.   

[JP]

Pretty strong language as murder implies intent.

[Nearly Sane]

Pretty strong language as murder implies intent.

In a legal sense yes, but as already covered this reads metaphorically, and from the perspective of the victims.

[floo]

In a legal sense yes, but as already covered this reads metaphorically, and from the perspective of the victims.

However the comment was meant it was unwise to make it, imo. It could spark all sorts of civil unrest, which is the last thing London needs after the terrorist attacks this year!

[Nearly Sane]

However the comment was meant it was unwise to make it, imo. It could spark all sorts of civil unrest, which is the last thing London needs after the terrorist attacks this year!

So victims of the fire should have their positions suppressed because there have been terrorist attacks?