Author Topic: London again ..... van hits mosque crowd  (Read 7935 times)

floo

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Re: London again ..... van hits mosque crowd
« Reply #50 on: June 20, 2017, 05:34:53 PM »
So are we condemned to this terrorism forever or do you have another alternative?

Or are you going to stock with your disgusting/sick/perverted/animal line and think that outraged commenrs will somehow win the day?

I just don't understand what you are on about, or why you seem to have it in for me? I suggest if I really upset you so very much you ignore my posts.

Robbie

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Re: London again ..... van hits mosque crowd
« Reply #51 on: June 20, 2017, 06:26:18 PM »
He's just asking for alternatives, no-one's got it in for anyone from what I see.

Of course anti-gay bigots are WRONG, did I say they weren't? ::)

No you didn't & I didn't say you did  :o.
If I'd said - "and we all know what the blooming bigots think don't we floo", you might have got it (tho' don't think I was that unclear, I type badly on this laptop).

We misunderstand eachother's post sometimes i think.

(Maybe lots of times  :D.)
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floo

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Re: London again ..... van hits mosque crowd
« Reply #52 on: June 20, 2017, 06:46:51 PM »
He's just asking for alternatives, no-one's got it in for anyone from what I see.

No you didn't & I didn't say you did  :o.
If I'd said - "and we all know what the blooming bigots think don't we floo", you might have got it (tho' don't think I was that unclear, I type badly on this laptop).

We misunderstand eachother's post sometimes i think.

(Maybe lots of times  :D.)

If you say so.

Nearly Sane

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Re: London again ..... van hits mosque crowd
« Reply #53 on: June 20, 2017, 07:53:58 PM »

Aruntraveller

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Re: London again ..... van hits mosque crowd
« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2017, 11:06:26 PM »
I just don't understand what you are on about, or why you seem to have it in for me? I suggest if I really upset you so very much you ignore my posts.

Clearly you don't understand what I am on about.

Let me try one more time. Western governments including our very own, have for years supported regimes that to put it bluntly are run by nasty, sadistic, butchering bastards. We, who collectively vote for our governments are, each of us, in some small part responsible for that state of affairs. That people who are bombed out of their homes by said butchering bastards and tortured, and have their families ripped apart feel to put it mildly, a bit fucking miffed. They then look around and think where are these butchering bastards getting all their weapons from - oh look the USA or the UK. It is then no big surprise to me that there is a payback involved. That the payback comes from various directions because of the way hatred seeps through the cracks of communities should also be no big surprise. So although our recent spate of terrorists were homegrown they were fed by fertilizer that was spread over the ground in the form of bombs in areas of the Middle East.

To not even contemplate that there are reasons for terrorists to act, no matter how twisted their logic is, is lazy thinking born of an assumed privilige and feeling of innate superiority that really has no basis in actual fact.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Robbie

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Re: London again ..... van hits mosque crowd
« Reply #55 on: June 21, 2017, 12:11:10 AM »
Please may I copy and use that (paraphrased) in conversation? You've put it quite concisely, I'm impressed (not a-crawling i assure you)!
True Wit is Nature to Advantage drest,
          What oft was Thought, but ne’er so well Exprest

Sassy

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Re: London again ..... van hits mosque crowd
« Reply #56 on: June 21, 2017, 12:32:30 AM »
Rose
Thanks for that great insight.  :)
Sass
Then what do you suggest?

Nick

Our laws have to protect our people and our way of life.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Bubbles

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Re: London again ..... van hits mosque crowd
« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2017, 07:43:27 AM »
Our laws have to protect our people and our way of life.

What's our way of life? Who's "our" people?

It's constantly changing, what was our way of life in the 1950's isn't now.

Even our food and drink has changed enormously, due to outside influences.

Are we supposed to freeze " our way of life" to 2017?

Plus we are all different, my Sunday is very different to my ordained Christians friends "way of life".

A Muslims week is different again, who are we protecting? My ordained Christians friends over a Muslims way?

The only thing we need to protect is our freedom, and unfortunately we are losing that anyway.

With freedom comes the risk of losing your "way of life".

Freedom is what happened to Sunday Trading, look at it now.

Freedom doesn't go hand in hand with " preserving our way of life"

To me " our people" includes Muslims and ethnic groups and their way of life too.

What does it mean to you Sassy?

Basically white and Christian?





« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 07:48:04 AM by Rose »

Aruntraveller

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Re: London again ..... van hits mosque crowd
« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2017, 08:03:53 AM »
Please may I copy and use that (paraphrased) in conversation? You've put it quite concisely, I'm impressed (not a-crawling i assure you)!

You can - but my post was fairly simplistic just to get the point over. The reality of the situation is much more horrifyingly complex (of course) and you would need to write a book (probably in several volumes) to even begin to describe the enormity of the problems that we face, and that we are partially responsible for, let alone coming up with solutions!

Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

floo

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Re: London again ..... van hits mosque crowd
« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2017, 08:37:57 AM »
Clearly you don't understand what I am on about.

Let me try one more time. Western governments including our very own, have for years supported regimes that to put it bluntly are run by nasty, sadistic, butchering bastards. We, who collectively vote for our governments are, each of us, in some small part responsible for that state of affairs. That people who are bombed out of their homes by said butchering bastards and tortured, and have their families ripped apart feel to put it mildly, a bit fucking miffed. They then look around and think where are these butchering bastards getting all their weapons from - oh look the USA or the UK. It is then no big surprise to me that there is a payback involved. That the payback comes from various directions because of the way hatred seeps through the cracks of communities should also be no big surprise. So although our recent spate of terrorists were homegrown they were fed by fertilizer that was spread over the ground in the form of bombs in areas of the Middle East.

To not even contemplate that there are reasons for terrorists to act, no matter how twisted their logic is, is lazy thinking born of an assumed privilige and feeling of innate superiority that really has no basis in actual fact.

You obviously haven't understood my posts either, let's just leave it at that.

floo

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Re: London again ..... van hits mosque crowd
« Reply #60 on: June 21, 2017, 08:38:39 AM »
Our laws have to protect our people and our way of life.

And what are our people and our way of life?

Aruntraveller

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Re: London again ..... van hits mosque crowd
« Reply #61 on: June 21, 2017, 08:57:11 AM »
You obviously haven't understood my posts either, let's just leave it at that.

Well seeing as your posts are generally short and sometimes non-sequitars, I think I have a fair grasp of them. From the way you have posted on here you appear not to want to acknowledge that our actions (as a country) have consequences. No amount of talk about innocence of victims will change that. Only thinking about our actions and changing them if that is what we think may help solve the problems.

I will leave you with this thought. If our government had not sat down to talk with terrorists, deaths would still be happening in N Ireland (I know there are still a few deaths - but largely the situation is unrecognizable compared to three decades ago).

Now admittedly the situation in the Middle East is more complicated by a factor of probably several thousands but is it not worth considering other options - because the status quo is definitely not working.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Rhiannon

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Re: London again ..... van hits mosque crowd
« Reply #62 on: June 21, 2017, 09:01:28 AM »
I get what you are saying, Trent. There's no doubt that we need to get our own house in order.

But IS can't be negotiated with. As they have said, we can surrender and cease all fighting and they will still hate us and kill us simply because of who we are.

Incidentally, after the latest atrocity is anyone interested in meaningful discussion with Britain First? Or are they the wrong kind of terrorist to be seen to be glad-handing with?

floo

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Re: London again ..... van hits mosque crowd
« Reply #63 on: June 21, 2017, 09:09:49 AM »
Well seeing as your posts are generally short and sometimes non-sequitars, I think I have a fair grasp of them. From the way you have posted on here you appear not to want to acknowledge that our actions (as a country) have consequences. No amount of talk about innocence of victims will change that. Only thinking about our actions and changing them if that is what we think may help solve the problems.

I will leave you with this thought. If our government had not sat down to talk with terrorists, deaths would still be happening in N Ireland (I know there are still a few deaths - but largely the situation is unrecognizable compared to three decades ago).

Now admittedly the situation in the Middle East is more complicated by a factor of probably several thousands but is it not worth considering other options - because the status quo is definitely not working.

The IRA, as bad as they are, have some rationale on their side due to the disgusting way the Irish had been treated by the British. ISIS is a whole different ball game imo, their actions are based on their take on what Allah expects of them and they are unlikely to listen to reason.

Aruntraveller

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Re: London again ..... van hits mosque crowd
« Reply #64 on: June 21, 2017, 09:10:19 AM »
I get what you are saying, Trent. There's no doubt that we need to get our own house in order.

But IS can't be negotiated with. As they have said, we can surrender and cease all fighting and they will still hate us and kill us simply because of who we are.

Incidentally, after the latest atrocity is anyone interested in meaningful discussion with Britain First? Or are they the wrong kind of terrorist to be seen to be glad-handing with?

In the short term I would agree - but minds change in every organization overtime. Intransigence can soften although I   grant you that IS are very, very unusual in their mindset. But that doesn't mean that we can't win hearts and minds elsewhere in the region that may help improve our standing and reduce risks we face.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

trippymonkey

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Re: London again ..... van hits mosque crowd
« Reply #65 on: June 21, 2017, 09:14:23 AM »
I'm afraid, with IS just the very fact we're not Muslim & refuse to convert or are even the 'WRONG' type of Muslim, makes us worthy of death.
They seem to be on some sort of incredibly warped mission to destroy anything they feel doesn't fit in with their version of Islam. They must be stopped at all, most, costs.

Nick

Shaker

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Re: London again ..... van hits mosque crowd
« Reply #66 on: June 21, 2017, 09:15:04 AM »
Winning hearts and minds elsewhere in the region is a laudable and worthy aim - but realistically, would it really have any effect where we need it, i.e. on IS? I can't see it. As Rhi said, some factions simply can't be reasoned with. Die-hard Nazis at the end of WWII. Japanese High Command likewise. When attachment to a goal or an ideology trumps sanity itself, the chances of discussing things around a table are ... well, nonexistent.

These are people so wedded to the idea of death for and in the name of The Cause that they regard a love of life and peace as a degenerate weakness of decadents.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 09:19:11 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Aruntraveller

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Re: London again ..... van hits mosque crowd
« Reply #67 on: June 21, 2017, 09:19:39 AM »
Winning hearts and minds elsewhere in the region is a laudable and worthy aim - but realistically, would it really have any effect where we need it, i.e. on IS? I can't see it. As Rhi said, some factions simply can't be reasoned with. Die-hard Nazis at the end of WWII. Japanese High Command likewise.

Then we are condemned to even more death of the very innocents that Floo is getting so upset about. I don't know the answers I just know that the response we are giving at the moment is not producing any improvements.

Perhaps we have to accept that we are partially responsible for this whole mess and there is no way out. Perhaps Floo is right we need to go on arming vicious regimes.

There, right there is a very depressing thought.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Shaker

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Re: London again ..... van hits mosque crowd
« Reply #68 on: June 21, 2017, 09:23:19 AM »
I feel much the same way.

I'm reluctant to go into it further, partly because I don't feel as though I have any answers either and partly because I don't want to come over as some sort of keyboard general (which I'm definitely not).
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: London again ..... van hits mosque crowd
« Reply #69 on: June 21, 2017, 09:24:47 AM »
As I've said before, I think IS will fizzle out - experts on this call it jihad fatigue. But not before more mayhem, suffering and grief.

Fanaticism get very boring after a while. Even more so when it doesn't really succeed. And although people driving vans into other people is horrible, we've faced and survived worse.

Shaker

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Re: London again ..... van hits mosque crowd
« Reply #70 on: June 21, 2017, 09:33:11 AM »
True.

My youth (such as it was - yes, I did have one) was punctuated by IRA atrocities that you can reel off as a list of names. Omagh. Warrington. Enniskillen. The Republicans however did prove themselves to be amenable to discussion, and although there are still numerous problems and tensions in NI and the situation is a long, long way from perfect, for years now we've had a form of peace - wobbly at times, true, but even so. I don't think this can be said of IS so the best we can hope for is Rhi's jihad fatigue and that it will eventually fizzle out and fade away.

What, if anything, could be done to accelerate that process: well, that's a poser.

Fanaticism may be boring after a while with most - especially when it shows no sign of achieving anything - but the problem with the minority but hardest of the hard core fanatics is that it leads to a redoubling of effort.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 09:35:49 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: London again ..... van hits mosque crowd
« Reply #71 on: June 21, 2017, 10:03:52 AM »
At least these hardcore fanatics want to die in the process too. That's a bonus.

Nearly Sane

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Re: London again ..... van hits mosque crowd
« Reply #72 on: June 21, 2017, 10:04:11 AM »
I think there is a need to look under the hood of IS here. It's not in the sense of these attacks an organised structure such as many terrorist groupings in the past. It can claim and can be claimed by those carrying out atrocities but isn't necessarily anything other than a brand. I posted a link to an attack in zmelbourne recently where the idiot carrying it out both claimed the action, which deemed more thuggery than terrorism,  in the name of Al Queda and IS, which since they oppose each other makes no sense.



I think we see the threat magnified under the 24/7 media coverage to be an existential threat when it isn't. It is the type of violence and in many ways at a lower level that we have had for at least 50 years, and as a theme for a lot longer. Many of the terrorist groups in Europe in the 70s were dedicated to the collapse of Western capitalism, indeed there was a strong Marxist wing in the IRA, so the idea that there were the nice sensible rational terrorists and now we have the nasty irrational ones is overly simplistic and the sort of narrative that politicians and media like.

I suspect that Rhiannon is right that we are in a sort of hula hoop fad of attacks at the moment, in part fed by the media and the need of sad fuckwits yobdoe and kill in the name of their latest obsession. But trentvoyager is definitely right that abrogating responsibility for the deaths of innocents caused by our game playing at geo politics is foolish and callous. If we back selling of arms and dropping of bombs that kill innocents, a condemnation of those who do the same is mere hypocrisy. The patents of a child killed in a Yemeni hospital would be mad to think that somehow that death was not as a result of evil simply because the bomb was produced with that special extra flavour, Western freedom.

And as ever, that isn't to say that any thug, who carries out any attack and cites the death of that child as a reason, is justified in any sense. Rather that their justification is worth exactly what out justifications are for supporting the sections that lead to the death of the child.

We are a species of scum and rainbows. If we solve one problem, we are inventive to create many others but that doesn't mean we stop trying to solve the problems. There is no simple equation that says if you stop x, then the 'othet' will stop that but I see no reason. For us to be supporting the bombing of areas where we have no coherent objective beyond it making us feel like we are doing something. I see no need to be arming regimes which are supportive of groups such as IS. I see no need for supporting regimes which carry out the exact same type of punishments that IS. While we continue to do those things we are not just hypocrites, we are evil hypocrites that support the whippings, and the beheadings and the killing of children.



wigginhall

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Re: London again ..... van hits mosque crowd
« Reply #73 on: June 21, 2017, 10:24:10 AM »
You can negotiate, not with the IS hard-liners, but with IS supporters.   These include those tribal areas in Syria and Iraq which for various reasons, accepted IS as a defensive line.   Partly this was against Shia militias, about whom there is great fear in these areas, and also against the Iraqui govt and obviously the Syrian govt.   

In fact, I am sure that such negotiations are going on.  This happened before with AQ, and some tribes in Iraq eventually began to fight against them.

But this is also part of a carrot and stick approach.   You offer some kind of deal with these tribal areas, and also pursue IS militants militarily. 

In fact, there is something of a parallel here with IRA/Sinn Fein. 
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

floo

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Re: London again ..... van hits mosque crowd
« Reply #74 on: June 21, 2017, 10:39:54 AM »
Then we are condemned to even more death of the very innocents that Floo is getting so upset about. I don't know the answers I just know that the response we are giving at the moment is not producing any improvements.

Perhaps we have to accept that we are partially responsible for this whole mess and there is no way out. Perhaps Floo is right we need to go on arming vicious regimes.

There, right there is a very depressing thought.

Where did I say that?