The Future of Britain

[jeremyp]

So you think that pointing out illogicality and incorrectness isn't showing empathy. OK, so how do you challenge in a way that shows empathy? I am interested to learn from previous approaches you might have used here that you think worthy of repetition.

I think you took a pedantic point far beyond what was needed. Everybody knows what people mean when they say "I hope we are not going to start banning things" or similar. But you had to focus on the literal meaning of JP's comment. I hope you feel like a big man for having driven him away - at least briefly.

The thing that worries me most is what freedoms the government is going to start encroaching as a response to these   acts. For instance, we know Theresa May wants to significantly reduce the openness of the Internet and we know she wants to deny us the right to privacy in our communications by denying us proper encryption. I'm actually surprised nobody has mooted the compulsory carrying of identity cards yet. 

[wigginhall]

I'm not either. It has left me like that in the past. Not now. Like you I feel all kinds of things and have shed tears, but I don't feel depressed, or hopeless, or hate. Maybe it's because my own life has more good in it than bad right now, selfish though that might be.

I don't think it's selfish.   Many people have a sort of core of good feelings, and that remains, even in bad times.

[Shaker]

I'm actually surprised nobody has mooted the compulsory carrying of identity cards yet.

A few years back it was, of course.

Luckily it was defeated; but in the current climate if it was floated again I'd put money on it being passed.

[jeremyp]

A few years back it was, of course.

Luckily it was defeated; but in the current climate if it was floated again I'd put money on it being passed.

I agree, which is the kind of thing that depresses me (although not clinically since we are all being so precise on this thread). I can't see any way to stop the current cycle of violence. Anybody can get in a van and drive it into a crowd of people they don't like. If only oner person in a million can't see the sense of not doing this sort of thing, that's 60 people in the UK prepared to commit such acts of violence.

[wigginhall]

Why is it being precise?  Tom Holland says 'I've rarely been so depressed about the future of this country'.   I did ask if he means something different from  depression, but I assume he does mean that.

[Rhiannon]

I don't think it's selfish.   Many people have a sort of core of good feelings, and that remains, even in bad times.

One thing I know from having both reactions is that I feel it's a better way of honouring those that have died to live as fully as possible.

[Rhiannon]

I agree, which is the kind of thing that depresses me (although not clinically since we are all being so precise on this thread). I can't see any way to stop the current cycle of violence. Anybody can get in a van and drive it into a crowd of people they don't like. If only oner person in a million can't see the sense of not doing this sort of thing, that's 60 people in the UK prepared to commit such acts of violence.

But they won't all do it.

Experts are already talking of 'jihad fatigue'. It will take a while, but then it will be in the past.

[Robbie]

I hope so Rhiannon, have thought the same.  Things do pass.

[Nearly Sane]

I think you took a pedantic point far beyond what was needed. Everybody knows what people mean when they say "I hope we are not going to start banning things" or similar. But you had to focus on the literal meaning of JP's comment. I hope you feel like a big man for having driven him away - at least briefly.

The thing that worries me most is what freedoms the government is going to start encroaching as a response to these   acts. For instance, we know Theresa May wants to significantly reduce the openness of the Internet and we know she wants to deny us the right to privacy in our communications by denying us proper encryption. I'm actually surprised nobody has mooted the compulsory carrying of identity cards yet.

Ah, you know what everybody thinks? That's nice. And no I don't know what people mean by certain expressions or similar and I wonder whether arguing that something is a cornerstone when it makes no logical sense is useful. Do you think stating something that makes no logical sense is useful?

[Sassy]

Tom Holland on Twitter...

Is this our future: cycles of sectarian killing, hatred fuelling hatred? I've rarely felt more depressed about my countries future.

I agree with him.

Tell me what reason the terrorist have to hate us or our country?
If they don't like us they don't have to live here and kill our children.
But he and many others are really about attention and not about reality are they?

You cannot put lions in amongst the lambs and expect them not to kill.

[Shaker]

I agree with him.

Tell me what reason the terrorist have to hate us or our country?

A great many think that the secular, liberal, pluralist values by which Western nations abide are degenerate, decadent, hedonistic, blasphemous, weak and anti-Muslim.

If they don't like us they don't have to live here and kill our children.

Which assumes, in the teeth of abundant evidence, that terrorists are alien, foreign, the other, from outside. In fact most of the recent high-profile cases involved British-born perpetrators.

Manchester: British terrorist.
Westminster Bridge: British terrorist.
Finsbury Park: British terrorist.

Terrorists aren't always 'they'; often they're 'we'. Given that Khalid Masood, the Westminster attacker, was a man originally called Adrian, Kent-born and from Tonbridge Wells, I suggest your Sun reader "send them all back where they came from" rhetoric needs more work to put it mildly.

[Sriram]

Actually its not about the physical origins of a person...but the mental attitude and who or what the person identifies with. His sense of belonging.

As an example, in India we have lived with Muslims for 1000 years ever since the first invasion and plunder by Muhammad of Ghazni around 1000 CE.  Most Muslims in India are Hindu converts over the centuries....but many of them even today have greater allegiance with Pakistan than with India. Whether it is about war or Line of Control skirmishes or Pakistan sponsored terrorism or even cricket, it is the same.  This is a problem we continue to face almost on a day to day basis.

It is a fact that many Muslims (not all, I agree) tend to identify with Islam, Mecca and Islamic states rather than the country of their residence or origins. Why this is so can be analysed separately but the fact cannot be denied.

It is not about religion at all. In India in particular we Hindus don't give a hoot what or who anyone worships. They are welcome to worship anyone as long as they integrate with the majority folks in other matters....which they usually don't.

So, this problem of integration with Muslims is a real issue and is not likely to go away as easily as some of you might think.

[torridon]

Tell me what reason the terrorist have to hate us or our country?

God hates sin, so I've heard it said.  So if you see western values as degenerate and sinful it's not that much of a stretch
 to convince yourself that your hatred is in line with god's hatred and your actions are the carrying out of god's will.

If they don't like us they don't have to live here and kill our children.

1/ Terrorism is a global problem,
2/ Most terrorists are home grown rather than foreigners that are here temporarily on some basis, either legal or illegal.  Upping sticks and emigrating because they don't like life here may not be a simple option as you make it sound.

[ProfessorDavey]

Actually its not about the physical origins of a person...but the mental attitude and who or what the person identifies with. His sense of belonging.

As an example, in India we have lived with Muslims for 1000 years ever since the first invasion and plunder by Muhammad of Ghazni around 1000 CE.  Most Muslims in India are Hindu converts over the centuries....but many of them even today have greater allegiance with Pakistan than with India. Whether it is about war or Line of Control skirmishes or Pakistan sponsored terrorism or even cricket, it is the same.  This is a problem we continue to face almost on a day to day basis.

It is a fact that many Muslims (not all, I agree) tend to identify with Islam, Mecca and Islamic states rather than the country of their residence or origins. Why this is so can be analysed separately but the fact cannot be denied.

It is not about religion at all. In India in particular we Hindus don't give a hoot what or who anyone worships. They are welcome to worship anyone as long as they integrate with the majority folks in other matters....which they usually don't.

So, this problem of integration with Muslims is a real issue and is not likely to go away as easily as some of you might think.

And the Finsbury Park mosque terrorist?

And the terrorist who killed Jo Cox?

[Aruntraveller]

A great many think that the secular, liberal, pluralist values by which Western nations abide are degenerate, decadent, hedonistic, blasphemous, weak and anti-Muslim.Which assumes, in the teeth of abundant evidence, that terrorists are alien, foreign, the other, from outside. In fact most of the recent high-profile cases involved British-born perpetrators.

Manchester: British terrorist.
Westminster Bridge: British terrorist.
Finsbury Park: British terrorist.

Terrorists aren't always 'they'; often they're 'we'. Given that Khalid Masood, the Westminster attacker, was a man originally called Adrian, Kent-born and from Tonbridge Wells, I suggest your Sun reader "send them all back where they came from" rhetoric needs more work to put it mildly.

Agree with all that - plus bombing other countries in a fairly indiscriminate manner, and supporting regimes that bomb other countries in a totally indiscriminate manner doesn't help stop the feeling that the West and ourselves in particular don't give a damn about 'the other'.

[trippymonkey]

Sass
The UK is not an Islamic State YET ?!!?
Muslims' primary allegiance is to Islam on all levels which is why they have to have halaal butchers here even though ordinarily they would be banned as draining an animal of its blood while it's still breathing is NOT ON in 'our' rules ?!?!!?

[Shaker]

Sass
The UK is not an Islamic State YET ?!!?

Any good reason to think that it would be?

Muslims' primary allegiance is to Islam on all levels which is why they have to have halaal butchers here even though ordinarily they would be banned as draining an animal of its blood while it's still breathing is NOT ON in 'our' rules ?!?!!?

I quite agree with the point about animal cruelty being illegal in normal circumstances yet allowed without let or hindrance as soon as it's part of somebody's religion: but the existence of halal butchery is a poor example of primary allegiance being elsewhere. Jews also have kosher butchery - pretty well identical to halal, essentially - and as far as I'm aware nobody has ever used that as a rationale for claiming that Jews have no allegiance to Britain and British values. This seems as ridiculous as saying that vegetarians have no allegiance to the same because there are vegetarian shops and restaurants.

[Rhiannon]

I've never yet heard a Christian say that they put country ahead of God. For anyone of any faith, their god comes first.

[Nearly Sane]

I've never yet heard a Christian say that they put country ahead of God. For anyone of any faith, their god comes first.

There is an odd similarity in the emotional use of patriotism to that of religion. Some undefined greater good, that the individual usually has as an accident of birth, and often when they have converted they can become 'purer' in their worship of some shared values which despite being regarded as the best are often disputed and badly defined.

[ippy]

This subject is very well covered by Douglas Murray on YouTube, he covers most aspects of this problem and as I've said before I find very little in what he says to disagree with in the comments he makes about the present problems we have with terrorism.

Obviously any kind of terrorism is based very wrong misguided type of thinking and is to be deplored, however it's not all based on just the immediate things happening before our eyes, there is a considerable history to any of this kind of trouble and that, is where to me, D M covers most if not all aspects of these subjects. 

ippy

[Sassy]

A great many think that the secular, liberal, pluralist values by which Western nations abide are degenerate, decadent, hedonistic, blasphemous, weak and anti-Muslim.Which assumes, in the teeth of abundant evidence, that terrorists are alien, foreign, the other, from outside. In fact most of the recent high-profile cases involved British-born perpetrators.

Manchester: British terrorist.
Westminster Bridge: British terrorist.
Finsbury Park: British terrorist.

Terrorists aren't always 'they'; often they're 'we'. Given that Khalid Masood, the Westminster attacker, was a man originally called Adrian, Kent-born and from Tonbridge Wells, I suggest your Sun reader "send them all back where they came from" rhetoric needs more work to put it mildly.

Shaker,

Are you ill? I ask because even I would not in a million years think or find what you wrote acceptable by any means or terms.

[Sassy]

God hates sin, so I've heard it said.  So if you see western values as degenerate and sinful it's not that much of a stretch
 to convince yourself that your hatred is in line with god's hatred and your actions are the carrying out of god's will.

Another one who cannot keep the answers in-line with the question,
I have no hatred you on the other hand have prejudice a prejudice which would lead you to side with evil.
The fact is NO ONE outside our Country had the right to come here and kill our children FACT DEAL WITH IT.

1/ Terrorism is a global problem,

So the UK is the WORLD NOW? NO! That's right ... Terrorism is only global because people allowed them to travel here.

2/ Most terrorists are home grown rather than foreigners that are here temporarily on some basis, either legal or illegal.  Upping sticks and emigrating because they don't like life here may not be a simple option as you make it sound.

Foreigners  being allowed to breed here is not home grown. And the fact remains it would be best to stop anyone coming here for the time being.

[Sassy]

Sass
The UK is not an Islamic State YET ?!!?
Muslims' primary allegiance is to Islam on all levels which is why they have to have halaal butchers here even though ordinarily they would be banned as draining an animal of its blood while it's still breathing is NOT ON in 'our' rules ?!?!!?

They SHOULD BE BANNED AND REMAIN BANNED IT IS CRUEL. The same for any religion who use such barbaric methods.

[Sassy]

I've never yet heard a Christian say that they put country ahead of God. For anyone of any faith, their god comes first.

How would that work? Maybe you don't hear it because it is not logical.

[torridon]

Another one who cannot keep the answers in-line with the question,
I have no hatred you on the other hand have prejudice a prejudice which would lead you to side with evil.
The fact is NO ONE outside our Country had the right to come here and kill our children FACT DEAL WITH IT.So the UK is the WORLD NOW? NO! That's right ... Terrorism is only global because people allowed them to travel here.

Foreigners  being allowed to breed here is not home grown. And the fact remains it would be best to stop anyone coming here for the time being.

That's all rather naive and we will not 'abolish war and terrorism' through ignorance, we have to understand the nature of a problem in order to fix it.  The facts are that terrorists are mostly home grown individuals who have been radicalised whilst living in their home country. Terrorism is a global problem in the sense that it is widespread, not restricted to one or two countries and it is a problem not because of freedom of movement.  You seem to imagine that terrorists are all foreigners coming here to do bad things but the figures in Europe at least do not back you up.  The vast majority of European deaths by terrorist atrocities over the last 50 years have been due to indigenous terrorists particularly in Northern Ireland, Spain, Italy and Germany.  We are currently seeing a surge in Islamic jihadism and that again is a global problem, not in the sense that freedom of movement is the problem, but that Islam is a global phenomenon and so its jihadi fringe is also a global problem. Building walls, Trump style, will not solve anything long term, the real battle is to do with hearts and minds, not geography. We cannot defeat dysfunctional thinking with walls.