The Carpenters

[Humph Warden Bennett]

OK most of my generation consider Richard & Karen to be naff MOR types.

I think of them differently. For me, they are surreal.

Karen sang in an alto range, usually to my ear female alto voices sound ugly, but her voice was sweet, without being sexy. Richard was a tenor, and for "white" pop music to have alto & tenor harmonies is not common.

Try this: https://youtu.be/veyS5f2JD08

If one sees the unusual three fold cover for their album "Now and Then", it looks almost alien, like an image of a place that looks superficially like "real" life....but it is not, for it is an image of a world that never really existed.

Any comments?

[Nearly Sane]

Not sure if surreal is the word I would use but I appreciate the point. There is a balance of hope and melancholy in Karen's tone which I think has rarely if ever been  matched. The tenor, along with a clever use of mixing techniques, emphasise the tone in a way that is unique and I think of its time. That said, it has had obvious ongoing influences.

[Rhiannon]

I think they were innovative in their use of layers of recorded voice. Sorry, don't know the technical way to put this.

I don't think it's possible to discuss them without mentioning Karen's illness. I remember watching Swap Shop; they were due to appear but only Richard showed as he 'was unwell'. I don't think it was long before she died. Would she have been so ill had she not found fame? Who knows.

[Nearly Sane]

It's a difficult one. It seems obvious that fame has costs for people but we don't know that that is the, or even a cause, in individual circumstances. There's no guarantee that had Elvis walked away from fame after That's Alright Mama, that he wouldn't have been dead by 42 of some addiction.

I think we need to be aware that it isn't necessarily a boon, and that we are often too judgmental of those in the spotlight but not sure there is a way of avoiding it.

 One of the ancestors in my family found fame, he drank too much and committed suicide. But he was far from the only one who drank too much, and not the only one to commit suicide.

I'm not sure whether what happened with Karen Carpenter is, therefore, that relevant to how unusual or innovative they were.

[Rhiannon]

To what extent did her illness inform their work though? I think it is impossible to assume that they would have sounded the way that they did were she not ill.

[Nearly Sane]

To what extent did her illness inform their work though? I think it is impossible to assume that they would have sounded the way that they did were she not ill.

I think there are times a situation in terms of health informs how artists might sound - Johnny Cash and Hurt springs to mind, though that is also the listener bring affected by what they know. There are elements of Van Gogh's paintings that feel like symptoms but I think we need to be careful about retroreading what we know into how people perform, paint, play.

HWB is right that it is an unusual mix and Richard was certainly an innovator and Karen challenged him to to more. I think we use our normal pattern seeking to ignore the non tortured geniuses, and the happy comedians.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

Not sure if surreal is the word I would use but I appreciate the point. There is a balance of hope and melancholy in Karen's tone which I think has rarely if ever been  matched. The tenor, along with a clever use of mixing techniques, emphasise the tone in a way that is unique and I think of its time. That said, it has had obvious ongoing influences.

Try this one. I am not sure if I actually like this song or not, because the exquisite harmonies do not conceal the fact that it is very melancholy. Keith would probably put it in his Desert Disc collection.

https://youtu.be/aKYNckacP6E

[Aruntraveller]

Always, always rated Karen's voice and Richards production.

Lennon on briefly meeting Karen Carpenter said:

“I just want to tell you, love, that I think you’ve got a fabulous voice”

Says it all.

[Aruntraveller]

Try this one. I am not sure if I actually like this song or not, because the exquisite harmonies do not conceal the fact that it is very melancholy. Keith would probably put it in his Desert Disc collection.

https://youtu.be/aKYNckacP6E

Interesting, not heard that before - my stand out of The Carpenters is this (which I think I have posted about before):

https://youtu.be/5GChYjK8rIk

A brilliant Leon Russell song that fits perfectly with her voice - with a cool, elegant arrangement.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

Interesting, not heard that before - my stand out of The Carpenters is this (which I think I have posted about before):

https://youtu.be/5GChYjK8rIk

A brilliant Leon Russell song that fits perfectly with her voice - with a cool, elegant arrangement.

I do know that song, although I have not heard it for nearly thirty years. I do find it poignant.

[Anchorman]

I think there are times a situation in terms of health informs how artists might sound - Johnny Cash and Hurt springs to mind, though that is also the listener bring affected by what they know. There are elements of Van Gogh's paintings that feel like symptoms but I think we need to be careful about retroreading what we know into how people perform, paint, play.

HWB is right that it is an unusual mix and Richard was certainly an innovator and Karen challenged him to to more. I think we use our normal pattern seeking to ignore the non tortured geniuses, and the happy comedians.

-
That brings to mind Judith Durham of the Seekers (not the 'new' ones')
I'd loved the sound of her voice since I was very young, and had all the Seekers albums plus a few jazz albums she'd made after the Seekers split.
When the foursome reunited for a few years as a celebration tour, Judith was suffering from dementia. Her voice, when she spoke, was thready, very weak. But put a mike in her hand and let the foursome play together and there was no whit of difference in her ability.

[Nearly Sane]

Good call, Judith Durham's voice takes me back to being small.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-RkC6MYT2E

[Humph Warden Bennett]

Good call, Judith Durham's voice takes me back to being small.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-RkC6MYT2E

To my ear Judith is a Mezzo, rather than an Alto.

Is it true that this song is about kids going to an orphanage?

[Nearly Sane]

Agree about the mezzo, though I think there is some similarity in tone, I was more commenting on the idea of whether illness informs someone's work. In the case of Judith Durham, it seemed only to inform the listener of the power of music.

Don't know if Morningtown Ride is about an orphanage, though in trying to see I found out that the writer also wrote Little Boxes and a number of other well other songs.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malvina_Reynolds

[Anchorman]

The Seekers specialised in the songs of the folk scene in the '50's and early '60's, mining a lot from Dylan. Pete Seeger, Peter, Paul and Mary, etc. Judith was intensely spiritual - hence a lot of gospel made it into their work, and she became more so after the group split, studying Bhuddism and Native Australian religions. I've a tape somewhere of a jazz session she recorded with Humphrey Lirttleton and Helen Shapiro in around 1980 - and I wish someone would remaster it and release it, because the sound is simply enthralling.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

The Seekers specialised in the songs of the folk scene in the '50's and early '60's, mining a lot from Dylan. Pete Seeger, Peter, Paul and Mary, etc. Judith was intensely spiritual - hence a lot of gospel made it into their work, and she became more so after the group split, studying Bhuddism and Native Australian religions. I've a tape somewhere of a jazz session she recorded with Humphrey Lirttleton and Helen Shapiro in around 1980 - and I wish someone would remaster it and release it, because the sound is simply enthralling.

I always found The Seekers to be a bit unreal, not because of Judith, but because of Athol Guy. For a start, it's a weird name, secondly, he stood at the back, playing a double bass that was never heard' and he seemed to be singing, but his voice never seemed to be heard. Yes Judith sang the top line, Keith the second, and Bruce the third, but what exactly was this strange MSN with the spectacles contribution?