Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana

[Nearly Sane]

And philosophers sink?


http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-time-of-our-lives

[Sriram]

And philosophers sink?


http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-time-of-our-lives

There is nothing called Time. Only changing events exist. Measuring this change creates Time.

[ekim]

There is no time like the present!

[Walter]

There is no time like the present!

and there's no present like a Rolex

[Nearly Sane]

There is nothing called Time. Only changing events exist. Measuring this change creates Time.

How does measuring create the thing? If changing events exist (note all three words have time concepts implied), how do they happen?

[ekim]

How does measuring create the thing? If changing events exist (note all three words have time concepts implied), how do they happen?

I suspect that what Sriram means is, as you have suggested, 'time' is a concept, rather than something which exists in its own right.

[Nearly Sane]

I suspect that what Sriram means is, as you have suggested, 'time' is a concept, rather than something which exists in its own right.

I think this is where we have to be careful about muddling concepts and uses of words. I doubt anyone says time is a thing in the same way as a sock is a thing. The concept of time and how things change is not created by measurement unless Sriram is arguing for there being no change without consciousness.

[torridon]

There is nothing called Time. Only changing events exist. Measuring this change creates Time.

If time doesn't exist, does that mean that spacetime doesn't exist ?

[Udayana]

Does space exist?

[Nearly Sane]

Again in the sense of existence as in is space and/or time like a rock, no. But language is a slippery slidey thing like a greased fish trying to he grasped by soapy hands. If it does not exist like a rock, does that mean there is no such thing as space and/or time? Or is the concept a valid facet or concept of reality. We have to be careful that the difficulty in being clear isn't used to simply give free passes to deepities.

[Sriram]

If time doesn't exist, does that mean that spacetime doesn't exist ?

Actually what is Time? Time is only an observers view and measurement of change.   It is a sequence or succession of events that creates Past, Present and Future.  If nothing happened, where is Time? 

We intuitively tend to think of Time as something that goes on and on forever...and within which events happen. We attribute change to Time. Actually it is the other way around. Only change happens. Time is only an observers way of understanding this change.

About Space-Time I would say that instead of Time they should incorporate 'Change' as the natural attribute of Space.

Time is only a human construct.  Change is nature.

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2017/06/24/time/

[Nearly Sane]

Actually what is Time? Time is only an observers view and measurement of change.   It is a sequence or succession of events that creates Past, Present and Future.  If nothing happened, where is Time? 

We intuitively tend to think of Time as something that goes on and on forever...and within which events happen. We attribute change to Time. Actually it is the other way around. Only change happens. Time is only an observers way of understanding this change.

About Space-Time I would say that instead of Time they should incorporate 'Change' as the natural attribute of Space.

Time is only a human construct.  Change is nature.

What is the difference here? Is Space just width? What if nothing changes but continues, why would that be change not time? Essentially this is a game of semantics but change needs time, it isn't clear that time needs change.

[Udayana]

Again in the sense of existence as in is space and/or time like a rock, no. But language is a slippery slidey thing like a greased fish trying to he grasped by soapy hands. If it does not exist like a rick, does that mean there is no such thing as space and/or time? Or is the concept a valid facet or concept of reality. We have to be careful that the difficulty in being clear isn't used to simply give free passes to deepities.

Right. These words are useful within certain contexts, conceptual frameworks. Bandying them around outside of those, we just end up playing word games and eventually make no sense. 

[Nearly Sane]

Right. These words are useful within certain contexts, conceptual frameworks. Bandying them around outside of those, we just end up playing word games and eventually make no sense.

Agree, it's why so much use of quantum is a meaningless game. The difficulties of it are used to smuggle in any conclusion.

[ekim]

.... but change needs time, it isn't clear that time needs change.

Why does change need time?  Why can't there just be change, movement and interaction?

[Nearly Sane]

Why does change need time?  Why can't there just be change, movement and interaction?

So remove time how does that happen? Remove change and time can still happen

[ekim]

So remove time how does that happen?

How does what happen?

Remove change and time can still happen

How does that happen?

[Nearly Sane]

How does what happen?How does that happen?

Change.

[ekim]

Change.

Change appears to be as a result of a release of or a flow of energy.  Why does this need 'time'?  Why can't this just happen?

[Nearly Sane]

Change appears to be as a result of a release of or a flow of energy.  Why does this need 'time'?  Why can't this just happen?

Dunno, aren't you just describing time?

[Bubbles]

But time and mass are linked and the passing of time can be different in one place to another.

Therefore I'd say time does exist, because the change in things can vary, depending on mass.

If it was just " change" it wouldn't vary from place to place. Something causes the variation, mass I guess but it has a real effect on the rate of change.

If it can differ between two places, that indicates time isn't just a perception of change.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_time_dilation

[Bubbles]

Omg!

The mind boggles!

 

http://www.robertlanzabiocentrism.com/is-death-an-illusion-evidence-suggests-death-isnt-the-end/

To late for me, night night!

 

[Sriram]

What is the difference here? Is Space just width? What if nothing changes but continues, why would that be change not time? Essentially this is a game of semantics but change needs time, it isn't clear that time needs change.

I think  ekim has got the idea.   

Why do we even think of something like Time? Only because events are happening in succession. We are habituated to thinking that there is something called Time that is flowing eternally on and on due to which events and changes happen. Actually this is not necessary at all.

Events and changes happen due to various forces and influences. Maybe entropy....or whatever else.  If an observer watches these events and he also has some frame of reference, he measures these changes in terms of Time.  Time is therefore a human construct.

In other words Time does not give rise to Change. It is the other way around. If Change is measured, it gives rise to Time.

Change can happen at different rates in different places. This gives rise to relative time.

[torridon]

I think  ekim has got the idea.   

Why do we even think of something like Time? Only because events are happening in succession. We are habituated to thinking that there is something called Time that is flowing eternally on and on due to which events and changes happen. Actually this is not necessary at all.

Events and changes happen due to various forces and influences. Maybe entropy....or whatever else.  If an observer watches these events and he also has some frame of reference, he measures these changes in terms of Time.  Time is therefore a human construct.

In other words Time does not give rise to Change. It is the other way around. If Change is measured, it gives rise to Time.

Change can happen at different rates in different places. This gives rise to relative time.

I don't think this captures Rose's point. My perception of the passage of time as measured by my wristwatch is the same as an astronaut's perception of the passage of time as measured by his wristwatch whilst on the ISS.  But they aren't the same.  If time does not exist how can it vary from place to place ?

[Shaker]

I don't think this captures Rose's point. My perception of the passage of time as measured by my wristwatch is the same as an astronaut's perception of the passage of time as measured by his wristwatch whilst on the ISS.  But they aren't the same.  If time does not exist how can it vary from place to place ?

Presumably because the perception of time, rather than anything like objective, perception-independent time, is entirely subjective. You say that your perception of time and the astronaut's perception of time are the same, yet we know (and can measure) that they're different; but even aboard the ISS the difference is so minuscule that there's no perception of difference. After all, technically speaking there's a time difference (even smaller, in this case) between the ground floor and the highest point of the Shard, or the Burj Khalifa for example.

On this I suspect the mystics such as Eckhart Tolle and physicists such as Julian Barbour are in agreement: no matter where you are or what you're doing in the universe, your perception of time is an ever-present Now because it simply can't be otherwise.

I read Julian Barbour's (supposedly popular science but actually hard-going) The End of Time some years ago and was promptly won over to his thesis about the unreality of time - I've long threatened to bore everybody into the shagpile with a thread on it (though it's incredibly difficult to do in words alone, without pictures or diagrams) ... but so far Sriram has come close to expressing the central idea:

Time does not give rise to Change. It is the other way around. If Change is measured, it gives rise to Time.