Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana

[Nearly Sane]

In the context of change there is no need to measure, just observe.

You were the one talking about relative rates, that's measuring. BTW how do you observe change if not for the dimension of time? 

[ekim]

Try it as 'movement needs space'. There isn't any sense there of an entity. If there was no dimension of time in what would change happen. If there was no change, it wouldn't mean there was no time. If there was no time how could there be change.

If I am reading you correctly, change would happen in space.  You have introduced 'dimension of time'  so it is for you to provide evidence of this dimension and how it is essential for change.

[Nearly Sane]

If I am reading you correctly, change would happen in space.  You have introduced 'dimension of time'  so it is for you to provide evidence of this dimension and how it is essential for change.

No. I didn't mention change in space, I mentioned movement I really haven't introduced the dimension of time. You have it loaded into change.

ETA for clarity, yes change can happen in space and movement is obviously change but change doesn't need space I would suggest the same way it needs to time.

[ekim]

You were the one talking about relative rates, that's measuring. BTW how do you observe change if not for the dimension of time?

Not necessarily measuring, just observing, e.g. the positional change of 4 people running a mile I could simply observe without needing to know what time they took.  There is no need to introduce the fictional 'dimension of time'.

[Nearly Sane]

Not necessarily measuring, just observing, e.g. the positional change of 4 people running a mile I could simply observe without needing to know what time they took.  There is no need to introduce the fictional 'dimension of time'.

Positional change is a measuring. And you have to use two time coordinates to do it.

[ekim]

No. I didn't mention change in space, I mentioned movement I really haven't introduced the dimension of time. You have it loaded into change.

ETA for clarity, yes change can happen in space and movement is obviously change but change doesn't need space I would suggest the same way it needs to time.

Isn't movement a change of position?  You said: 'if there was no dimension of time', bringing that concept into the discussion and implying there was a dimension of time.

[ekim]

Positional change is a measuring. And you have to use two time coordinates to do it.

I don't.  I just watch them changing positions until they arrive at their destination.  I haven't got the time for anything else.

[Sebastian Toe]

I don't.  I just watch them changing positions until they arrive at their destination.  I haven't got the time for anything else.

Until?

[Nearly Sane]

I don't.  I just watch them changing positions until they arrive at their destination.  I haven't got the time for anything else.

You watch them in time.

[ekim]

Until?

Yes, I use my imagination and create a possible future for them, otherwise where's the fun.

[ekim]

You watch them in time.

No, I'm out of time.

[Nearly Sane]

No, I'm out of time.

is this you announcing you are replacing Peter Capaldi?

[ekim]

is this you announcing you are replacing Peter Capaldi?

Why should I replace him, he's not replacing me.  Who does he think he is!

[wigginhall]

One of the famous Zen koans is: there is no time; what is memory?   Susan Blackmore wrestles with this in her book, 'Ten Zen Questions', and another one, whose title I've forgotten.   Ha ha ha.

[Nearly Sane]

Whose title I've forgotten would be a brilliant title.

[Nearly Sane]

Why should I replace him, he's not replacing me.  Who does he think he is!

A Change Lord

[Sriram]

Animals in all probability don't have a comprehension of Time.  I am not sure if any of them actually think of their lives as Past, Present and Future.

But we humans seem to have developed it fairly early in our development.  A very remarkable ability indeed that forms a fundamental base requirement for development of other intellectual abilities.  Without a concept of Time most other abilities would  be impossible, I think.

[Udayana]

Elephants? Birds?

It is clear that practically all living things have internal clocks. Perception of time develops along with memory ability.

[Nearly Sane]

Elephants? Birds?

It is clear that practically all living things have internal clocks. Perception of time develops along with memory ability.

Indeed, I'm not sure that animal behaviour would make any sense if you thought they didn't perceive time. How would something 'hunt'?

[torridon]

Elephants? Birds?

It is clear that practically all living things have internal clocks. Perception of time develops along with memory ability.

I don't think that is the same as developing an abstract concept of time, which I think is what Sriram meant. The vast majority of creatures live their lives in the present moment, I would have thought. A few, chimps for instance, can show evidence of forward planning, but the extent to which they know that they are forward planning is hard to say.

[Nearly Sane]

I don't think that is the same as developing an abstract concept of time, which I think is what Sriram meant. The vast majority of creatures live their lives in the present moment, I would have thought. A few, chimps for instance, can show evidence of forward planning, but the extent to which they know that they are forward planning is hard to say.

I think 'living in the present moment' makes no sense. That implies that there isn't such a thing as memory for animals and their behaviour doesn't bear that out. I don't see that there is a simple dichotomy of a compkex notion of time, and no concept.

[Udayana]

I don't think that is the same as developing an abstract concept of time, which I think is what Sriram meant. The vast majority of creatures live their lives in the present moment, I would have thought. A few, chimps for instance, can show evidence of forward planning, but the extent to which they know that they are forward planning is hard to say.

Well ... agreed ... but do animals have any abstract concepts at all?

[ekim]

I think 'living in the present moment' makes no sense. That implies that there isn't such a thing as memory for animals and their behaviour doesn't bear that out. I don't see that there is a simple dichotomy of a compkex notion of time, and no concept.

I expect what Torridon means is that animals live according to the drives prevalent in the moment rather than planning ahead e.g. if they are hungry they hunt and feed rather than have a breakfast time, a lunch time and dinner time.  Perhaps they are driven more by circadian rhythms and physiological drives rather than chronometers.

[Nearly Sane]

I expect what Torridon means is that animals live according to the drives prevalent in the moment rather than planning ahead e.g. if they are hungry they hunt and feed rather than have a breakfast time, a lunch time and dinner time.  Perhaps they are driven more by circadian rhythms and physiological drives rather than chronometers.

This seems weirdly specific. Perception of time surely doesn't need a ceasium clock? That there may be differences in how we perceive time and indeed ourselves is trivially true. But the assumption that our experience has nothing in common in terns of our perception of time seems odd. We have had AB on the Searching for God thread continually banging on about how all non human animals are simply reactive, and that being challenged strongly by torridon.

When the links to the orangutan making the hammock, or the monkey trying to resuscitate its electrocuted companion, or the elephants saving the baby elephant when it falls into the water, these seem to me to need a fairly rich concept of time to allow for cause and effect, and intentional actions to take place.

[Sriram]

It would be impossible for humans to live without the concept of Time, without a memory of the past and without thinking of the possibility of a future, even though animals do it.  

I wonder how the idea and comprehension of something called Time started and developed. Evolutionary scientists need to think about that. Very intriguing!