Questions on pagan beliefs - from topic from historical Jesus thread

[Owlswing]

I'm no further forward with paganism because of what I see as a lack of candour about it and the secrecy and mysteries etc.

Are you sure that you are not mixing up Pagans and the Freemasons?

The Freemasons ARE a secret society and make no secret of the fact.

The only secrets within Paganism are restricted to Witches Covens.

Every member of a Coven has a 'Witch name' that is only used by members of the coven to refer to each other when discussing meetings etc in the hearing of the general public so the actual members cxannot be identified.

The secrets of what is done and said as part of ritual workjing is kept secret so that air-headed twats don't think 'Ooo! Let's try that!', do it wrong and either nothing happens at all or something nasty happens.

Lots of spells, rituals, etc are published on the net and are available to anyone who cares to look for them, much like the contents of the Book of Common Prayer or the Hymnal.

As previously posted - you wanna know? Ask!

One word of warning - DON'T take the piss - the answer you get will be adjusted accordingly!

[trippymonkey]

O
What a fabbo post !!!
Blessed Be !!!!!

[Rhiannon]

And just to add I'm not a witch so my answer will be different again. 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Are you sure that you are not mixing up Pagans and the Freemasons?

The Freemasons ARE a secret society and make no secret of the fact.

The only secrets within Paganism are restricted to Witches Covens.

Every member of a Coven has a 'Witch name' that is only used by members of the coven to refer to each other when discussing meetings etc in the hearing of the general public so the actual members cxannot be identified.

The secrets of what is done and said as part of ritual workjing is kept secret so that air-headed twats don't think 'Ooo! Let's try that!', do it wrong and either nothing happens at all or something nasty happens.

Lots of spells, rituals, etc are published on the net and are available to anyone who cares to look for them, much like the contents of the Book of Common Prayer or the Hymnal.

As previously posted - you wanna know? Ask!

One word of warning - DON'T take the piss - the answer you get will be adjusted accordingly!

Thank you. That was informative.
I was a little puzzled though at your inference that there are substantive things happening that can be done ''wrong'' and that there are things which can ''happen''. To me that isn't commensurate with something just about faith which has been your line to now.

[Owlswing]

Thank you. That was informative.

I was a little puzzled though at your inference that there are substantive things happening that can be done ''wrong'' and that there are things which can ''happen''. To me that isn't commensurate with something just about faith which has been your line to now.

You are not comparing like with like!

The "faith" that I refer to is the belief in and the acknowledgement of the deities that figure in Pagan rituals etc., they are matters of "faith" not "fact". Just as Christian belief in Christ and his father are matters of faith and not of fact.

The "substantive things happening that can be done ''wrong''" are the use of the powers that exist in nature, the power fire to destroy (which is why 'fire' is rarely used in spell work), the powers of natural flora and fauna to assist in healing, the power of water to cleanse, the power of air to do likewise.

Rituals are carried out in order to harness these powers to achieve a desired end result, the wrong isntructions or the incorrect wording of a request can cause the precise opposite of the effect required.

[Robbie]

Copied from : Questions to Christians thread, now locked.

Me Today at 05:55:22 AM
Morning Owlswing. Someone else up at the crack of dawn.  I am up early when I have an early start at work, what's your excuse?  (that's when I sit with my coffee, trying to wake up, in front of the News or the last 20 mins of the vile Mr Kyle)?

I don't understand 'Questions to Christians' post at all.Maybe too early in the morning but what does the business about 'atheists go to the questions for pagans with a bit of respect', mean? Where do atheists 'go to pagans with questions'? I must've missed that bit.

Also, who is Vlad?

See you laters.
...


Owlswing:-
My excuse - insomnia!

There is a (dead) thread on the Pagan Topic titled 'Questions on pagan beliefs - from topic from historical Jesus thread'.

Who is Vlad? One of the early names used by "Questions to Christians"; one of about 2,500 he has used, all of which he seems to think are humourous or displaying his intellectual prowess.
---

Thanks for reply. Vlad the Inhaler  ?

Glad you pointed me to this thread because I want to ask somet hings please. Not sure if this is anything to do with pagan belief.
You recently mentioned tarot, just as an aside i think but am asking, do you believe tarot readings are accurate?

In your last post on this thread you said - "Rituals are carried out in order to harness these powers to achieve a desired end result, the wrong isntructions or the incorrect wording of a request can cause the precise opposite of the effect required".

In CofE (& others of course but I'm most familiar with Anglican) we have liturgy with same wording but every so often it's changed slightly, usually to more modern language. The meaning is the same. If someone (minister) got a couple of words back to front or congregant forgot some of the responses it would not invalidate it.

So if you slipped up it could be quite dangerous? You have to be precise. What about nervousness, that's something which causes people to make mistakes when they speak & they can't help.

Hope I am being respectful Owlswing. Thank you.

[Nearly Sane]

Just to note that Owlswing set up a specific thread in the FSA to be run in S his of that board to cover such questions. Your post might be better off addressed there, Robinson. You can be disrespectful of paganism on this board.



http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=12833.msg644086#msg644086

[Robbie]

Thanks NearlyS!
I'll see what Owl says (will look at that thread) & move it if he thinks it would be better there.

[Maeght]

Are you sure that you are not mixing up Pagans and the Freemasons?

The Freemasons ARE a secret society and make no secret of the fact.

Bit of an aside but at my local town fair the Freemasons had a stall looking to recruit new members and inform people about what they do. Times have changed it seems.

[Robbie]

They don't disclose everything surely? They've always been prepared to talk about some things - but not others.

[Rhiannon]

Officially they don't discuss their rituals. The rest they are pretty open about.

Ftr their rituals are (in the words of a mason I know) 'a bit daft' so making them public isn't much of a recruiting tool.

[Maeght]

I didn't visit their stand so don't know exactly how much detail they were giving but one of the people manning it was a boss where I used to work and it was always rumoured that he was a mason but he'd never confirm it so thought they were more secretative than perhaps they are.

[Rhiannon]

Your day only supposed to confirm if you are a mason to other masons - there really is a secret handshake and wearing a Masonic symbol also helps. The exception is if you want to invite someone to join it they intimate to you that they want to. Most families know, of course. I'm guessing though that as numbers are plummeting manning s stall could be seen as an 'invitation to join' these days and the rules are getting stretched. Very few young people are signing up - most go for groups like the Lions or the Round Table instead.

[Owlswing]

Your day only supposed to confurmmif you are a mason tonither masons - there really is a secret handshake and wearing a Masonic symbol also helps. The exception is if you want to invite someone to join it they intimate to you that they want to. Most families know, of course. I'm guessing though that as numbers are plummeting manning s stall could be seen as an 'invitation to join' these days and the rules are getting stretched. Very few young people are signing up - most go for groups like the Lions or the Round Table instead.

My maternal grand-father, my father and three of my brothers were/are Freemason's.

After Sunday lunches, weather permitting, my Grandfather would sit in a deckchair under the apple tree in his garden and, in the words of my Grandmother, study his 'bogey-bogey'! His Masonic ritual.

My father learned and practiced his ritual while shaving and his time in the bathroom in the mornings was punctuated by the rapping of his shaving brush on the washbasin to signify the hitting of the gavel on the table during ritual.

Ritual having to be performed from memory and without error if the member wished to progress in the hierarchy toward the position of Master of his Lodge.

These matter were, of course, not subject to the same secrecy as the words used.

[Owlswing]

Copied from : Questions to Christians thread, now locked.

Me Today at 05:55:22 AM
Morning Owlswing. Someone else up at the crack of dawn.  I am up early when I have an early start at work, what's your excuse?  (that's when I sit with my coffee, trying to wake up, in front of the News or the last 20 mins of the vile Mr Kyle)?

I don't understand 'Questions to Christians' post at all. Maybe too early in the morning but what does the business about 'atheists go to the questions for pagans with a bit of respect', mean? Where do atheists 'go to pagans with questions'? I must've missed that bit.

Also, who is Vlad?

See you laters.
...


Owlswing:-
My excuse - insomnia!

There is a (dead) thread on the Pagan Topic titled 'Questions on pagan beliefs - from topic from historical Jesus thread'.

Who is Vlad? One of the early names used by "Questions to Christians"; one of about 2,500 he has used, all of which he seems to think are humourous or displaying his intellectual prowess.
---

Thanks for reply. Vlad the Inhaler  ?

Glad you pointed me to this thread because I want to ask some things please. Not sure if this is anything to do with pagan belief.
You recently mentioned tarot, just as an aside I think but am asking, do you believe tarot readings are accurate?

Yes and no! The interpretation of the Tarot is a skill based upon knowledge of the contents of each card, of each suit of cards.

Some readers can be very good at getting it right - equally some can be devastatingly wrong; occasionally with devastating consequences.

For mine I only read for myself and for fun.

I have had readings done for me by friends, from a three-card 'past-present-future' reading to a full fifteen to twenty-four card spread, the results of these have, however, always been taken with the proverbial pinch of salt, a fact known to the reader at the time.

No, I do not believe, except with the inclusion of a gigantic slice of luck, that most readings are, except in gross, are accurate especially in matters of detail - I know of one young lady who was sadly disappointed when she found out that her intended (yes, she used that expression) was not a natural blond when she saw that his collar and cuffs did not match!
 

In your last post on this thread you said - "Rituals are carried out in order to harness these powers to achieve a desired end result, the wrong instructions or the incorrect wording of a request can cause the precise opposite of the effect required".

In CofE (& others of course, but I'm most familiar with Anglican) we have liturgy with same wording but every so often it's changed slightly, usually to more modern language. The meaning is the same. If someone (minister) got a couple of words back to front or congregant forgot some of the responses it would not invalidate it.

So if you slipped up it could be quite dangerous? You have to be precise. What about nervousness, that's something which causes people to make mistakes when they speak & they can't help.

Depending upon the nature of the result required of the ritual there are several options available to the High Priestess to cover things like nervousness and bad memory.

The ultimate option is, of course, to exclude the covener with nerves or insufficient memory from that particular ritual entirely or, equally 'of course', for the covener to exclude themselves.

The more usual remedy is to have the ritual read from a script which would be circulated well prior to the ritual date to give time for it to be read to the point of familiarity.

I know of one covener whose copy of ritual would be provided in Polish and English and she would use the Polish to ensure she understood full what the English meant.

Hope I am being respectful Owlswing. Thank you.

You were, thank YOU!

[Shaker]

Yes and no! The interpretation of the Tarot is a skill based upon knowledge of the contents of each card, of each suit of cards.

Some readers can be very good at getting it right - equally some can be devastatingly wrong; occasionally with devastating consequences.

For mine I only read for myself and for fun.

I have had readings done for me by friends, from a three-card 'past-present-future' reading to a full fifteen to twenty-four card spread, the results of these have, however, always been taken with the proverbial pinch of salt, a fact known to the reader at the time.

No, I do not believe, except with the inclusion of a gigantic slice of luck, that most readings are, except in gross, are accurate especially in matters of detail

I was quite surprised to read once that a considerable number of Tarot readers (practitioners?) - I don't know a percentage but it was claimed to be a significant number - don't even believe in fortune telling as such but regard the cards as a tool for introspection and meditation, with no suggestion that it has anything to do with divination. IIRC Jung was of this mind, who apparently regretted that he hadn't spent more time looking into Tarot reading.

I think a popular misconception of Tarot cards is akin to the popular view of prayer, namely, that it's what I call the vending machine approach: instead of coin in and chocolate bar out, it's prayer (or Tarot reading) in and result out, whereas - if what I've read is anywhere near accurate - the reality is far more subtle (and, arguably, interesting).

[Rhiannon]

Robinson,

I'm not a witch like Owlswing, and I'm not a coven member, so I wanted to put an alternative point of view.

My path's very personal to me. I don't have liturgy, or a ritual script to work from. In fact I don't have any kind of formal ritual. When I decided to open myself up to the pagan path most of the books I found were derived from Wicca one way or another, and the vast majority had instructions filled with 'and now say' 'and say this'. Not only did I find it prescriptive but a lot of the books came with dire warnings about the consequences of getting it wrong. For a while it put me off paganism altogether, given that I'd been raised a Christian and taught that paganism was evil. And having left one formal religion I didn't want to adopt another one, especially one where someone else told me what to do.,

Yet I knew I needed the freedom of the wildwood and connection to the land as my path. Time, and experience have taught me that the only things to be feared are those things that we conjure up with our imaginations. Now my path doesn't have a name - I guess there's some hedgewitchh in there, given my use of herbs and moon cycles, maybe some Druid given my love of trees, and some shamanism - I drum, I smudge, and I am interested in the psychological aspects of totem animals, using our native UK ones. For me much of what I do is about intent, and above all, connection.

I'm a pantheist - all is god. I don't experience personal deities as real - if only - but I'm respectful of them and their stories do make up a part of my path - in my case it's the Welsh deities that speak to me. Well, it's not too hard to guess that one. Anyway, I have had experiences that have felt real to me, but I now think came from my imagination. It doesn't matter. I keep on my pathway, open to new changes and whatever it brings me. Through dark times and good, I wouldn't have it any other way. And I never look back to my old life with regret.

[Shaker]

... and that's why, for all that it's quiet, the Pagan Topic attracts some splendid writing 

[Rhiannon]

 

[trippymonkey]

The last few posts were bloody marvellous so why can't we spread this attitude to some of the other plonkers on these boards !?!?!? 

Some here may know I live in Nelson near Burnley & looking left outside my front door, I have a most wonderful view of Pendle Hill where the infamous Pendle Witch Trials originated from ?!!?!?

[Shaker]

The last few posts were bloody marvellous so why can't we spread this attitude to some of the other plonkers on these boards !?!?!? 

I do wonder if it's something to do with the difference in attitude. Monotheists seem to want to try to prove their beliefs as objectively true for everyone; my experience of this topic is that people simply say "This is my take on things; take it or leave it since I'm not claiming that it has to be true for you or for anyone other than me." Owlswing is the first one to say that his religion is a belief system, a faith position; others, even if they go as far as that, still appear to want to try to play the true-for-you-too card.

[trippymonkey]

YEP
Perfect answer. But WTH do we do - if we 'should' do anything.

Nick

[Rhiannon]

I think a big problem is that Christians (can't speak for other faiths as I don't have direct experience) are taught that all people are inherently sinful - rotten with the sin of Adam, as it were. But they have at least recognised their sinfulness, repented and are saved. The rest of us haven't and I think that to many Christians - not all - that renders unbelievers as somehow less, and our failure to recognise the need to be saved means that our point of view doesn't need to be respected.

In my view there is no need to 'do' anything in response to the 'true for you' believers - their actions speak for the faith that they follow.

[Shaker]

I think a big problem is that Christians (can't speak for other faiths as I don't have direct experience) are taught that all people are inherently sinful - rotten with the sin of Adam, as it were. But they have at least recognised their sinfulness, repented and are saved. The rest of us haven't and I think that to many Christians - not all - that renders unbelievers as somehow less, and our failure to recognise the need to be saved means that our point of view doesn't need to be respected.

There's that; and I also wonder if there's also an element of challenge to those who hold such beliefs - seeing people who don't believe in any gods and who don't believe in sin and who don't see themselves as factory seconds even straight off the production line as Christianity teaches ... who knows; perhaps that might stir the bottom of the pond in some and make them think "If they don't feel that way, maybe I don't have to either."

[Rhiannon]

I don't know. Having been that side of the fence I know it feels deeply uncomfortable not to be able to convince others of your truth. Maybe that's  why some feel that it justifies lying.