Author Topic: Questions on pagan beliefs - from topic from historical Jesus thread  (Read 10777 times)

Owlswing

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Re: Questions on pagan beliefs - from topic from historical Jesus thread
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2017, 08:51:58 PM »

I was quite surprised to read once that a considerable number of Tarot readers (practitioners?) - I don't know a percentage but it was claimed to be a significant number - don't even believe in fortune telling as such but regard the cards as a tool for introspection and meditation, with no suggestion that it has anything to do with divination. IIRC Jung was of this mind, who apparently regretted that he hadn't spent more time looking into Tarot reading.

I think a popular misconception of Tarot cards is akin to the popular view of prayer, namely, that it's what I call the vending machine approach: instead of coin in and chocolate bar out, it's prayer (or Tarot reading) in and result out, whereas - if what I've read is anywhere near accurate - the reality is far more subtle (and, arguably, interesting).


This is very true! Of the two dozen or so 'practioners' with whom I am aquainted I would place nine or possible ten in the meditation category, either for themselves of for their 'clients'.

Reading the cards as they pertain to the 'client's' current situation, financial, emotional, etc. advising that they should see an expert on the matters which are troubling them or, as may be the case, another expert if the one they have is the problem.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Questions on pagan beliefs - from topic from historical Jesus thread
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2017, 09:08:28 PM »
There is a lot of the tarot in Jungian archetypes. Indeed much of Belbin or Myers-Briggs in the 'science' that is used in management ties in.

Owlswing

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Re: Questions on pagan beliefs - from topic from historical Jesus thread
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2017, 09:14:37 PM »

There is a lot of the tarot in Jungian archetypes. Indeed much of Belbin or Myers-Briggs in the 'science' that is used in management ties in.


With the greatest of regret I have to admit that the meaning of this sentence passed many feet over the top of my head.

I have never read Jung, or Freud for that matter, and the other two names I have, that I can remember, never seen before.

This is probably a judgement on my decision to leave school at 15 and join the Army!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Questions on pagan beliefs - from topic from historical Jesus thread
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2017, 09:20:27 PM »
With the greatest of regret I have to admit that the meaning of this sentence passed many feet over the top of my head.

I have never read Jung, or Freud for that matter, and the other two names I have, that I can remember, never seen before.

This is probably a judgement on my decision to leave school at 15 and join the Army!

The other two names are merely people who have classified people in a 'management' sense. I am entirely skeptical of them because they apply insight techniques as if they are science.

As for Jung (forget Freud here) I would suggest you read The Deptford Trilogy by Robertson Davies. I think the cross over of insight tarot to this becomes clear after that. If yph can't find a good cheap copy, email me, I have a few.

P.S. I am not Robertson Davies

Owlswing

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Re: Questions on pagan beliefs - from topic from historical Jesus thread
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2017, 09:30:14 PM »
Robinson,

I'm not a witch like Owlswing, and I'm not a coven member, so I wanted to put an alternative point of view.

My path's very personal to me. I don't have liturgy, or a ritual script to work from. In fact I don't have any kind of formal ritual. When I decided to open myself up to the pagan path most of the books I found were derived from Wicca one way or another, and the vast majority had instructions filled with 'and now say' 'and say this'. Not only did I find it prescriptive but a lot of the books came with dire warnings about the consequences of getting it wrong. For a while it put me off paganism altogether, given that I'd been raised a Christian and taught that paganism was evil. And having left one formal religion I didn't want to adopt another one, especially one where someone else told me what to do.,

Yet I knew I needed the freedom of the wildwood and connection to the land as my path. Time, and experience have taught me that the only things to be feared are those things that we conjure up with our imaginations. Now my path doesn't have a name - I guess there's some hedgewitch in there, given my use of herbs and moon cycles, maybe some Druid given my love of trees, and some shamanism - I drum, I smudge, and I am interested in the psychological aspects of totem animals, using our native UK ones. For me much of what I do is about intent, and above all, connection.

I'm a pantheist - all is god. I don't experience personal deities as real - if only - but I'm respectful of them and their stories do make up a part of my path - in my case it's the Welsh deities that speak to me. Well, it's not too hard to guess that one. Anyway, I have had experiences that have felt real to me, but I now think came from my imagination. It doesn't matter. I keep on my pathway, open to new changes and whatever it brings me. Through dark times and good, I wouldn't have it any other way. And I never look back to my old life with regret.


A lot of books referring to Wicca are, i regret to say, from the Llewellyn Press in the U S and over there they use the word 'Wicca' instead of 'witchcraft' and 'wiccan'  instead of witch. I met a young American witch and her father at a Festival in Holborn quite a few years ago and they were amazed at the fact that we were so open about being witches to the poiint of about 500 of us parading around on the 'Pagan Pride' march. They were convinced that it would be, at the very least, social suicide for any witch to do the same in the States.

That aside, in the UK, Wicca (captialised) is the jealously guarded perogative of those who are 'Hard Gard', who follow the rules laid down by G B Gardner in his Book of Shadows back in the Fifties and is copied out, by hand, by each new initiate to a Gardnerian Coven and has added to it all the rituals done by the owner and any spells and other activities.

The Hard Gard consider themselves the Elite of the Craft and anyone not Gard is considered to be a mere week-end fair-weather witch, at best and is only allowed the title wiccan (uncapitalised) to show our lower status. Sod 'em I use the capital regardless.

As I have posted the danger from 'doing something wrong' very much depends upon what you are doing or trying to do!

On your path, Lady Rhi, I would suggest that you would have to get about a hundred miles off it to do anything wrong!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Owlswing

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Re: Questions on pagan beliefs - from topic from historical Jesus thread
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2017, 09:32:18 PM »

The other two names are merely people who have classified people in a 'management' sense. I am entirely skeptical of them because they apply insight techniques as if they are science.

As for Jung (forget Freud here) I would suggest you read The Deptford Trilogy by Robertson Davies. I think the cross over of insight tarot to this becomes clear after that. If yph can't find a good cheap copy, email me, I have a few.

P.S. I am not Robertson Davies


Why not?
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Rhiannon

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Re: Questions on pagan beliefs - from topic from historical Jesus thread
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2017, 09:44:58 PM »
Sir Owll, your story reminds me of a date that I had with an American Wiccan last year. We went to a stately home and over tea on the terrace I asked him about his path. I saw his initial panic turn to slightly baffled relief once he realised that I felt perfectly safe talking about it in public.

Owlswing

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Re: Questions on pagan beliefs - from topic from historical Jesus thread
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2017, 09:52:39 PM »

Sir Owll, your story reminds me of a date that I had with an American Wiccan last year. We went to a stately home and over tea on the terrace I asked him about his path. I saw his initial panic turn to slightly baffled relief once he realised that I felt perfectly safe talking about it in public.


Daft ain't it!

They only had one witch-trial, initiated by girls suffering from puberty, completely screwed it up and they are still scared of witches!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Anchorman

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Re: Questions on pagan beliefs - from topic from historical Jesus thread
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2017, 10:03:32 PM »
My maternal grand-father, my father and three of my brothers were/are Freemason's. After Sunday lunches, weather permitting, my Grandfather would sit in a deckchair under the apple tree in his garden and, in the words of my Grandmother, study his 'bogey-bogey'! His Masonic ritual. My father learned and practiced his ritual while shaving and his time in the bathroom in the mornings was punctuated by the rapping of his shaving brush on the washbasin to signify the hitting of the gavel on the table during ritual. Ritual having to be performed from memory and without error if the member wished to progress in the hierarchy toward the position of Master of his Lodge. These matter were, of course, not subject to the same secrecy as the words used.
I'd say Freemasonry has very little to do with Paganism (or any other religion, for that matter) There used to be umpteen 'societies of secrecy' usually connected to trades. A prime example was the 'Ploughmans' word' which had its' share of ritual and rigmarole, some of it involving ingesting horse dung (yes, horse dung!) The "horseman's gripping word" was supposed to be a mysterious word which would control any team of horses at the plough. Most such groups died the same death as their industry (I suppose swearing at a tractor doesn't have the same mistique) However freemasonry was continued, mainly by middle and upper classes, as a kind of 'hellfire club' for the refined, acquiring more 'sophisticated' ritual as the years went on.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Nearly Sane

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Re: Questions on pagan beliefs - from topic from historical Jesus thread
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2017, 10:14:13 PM »
Why not?
Because he was a better writer than I dream of being.

Rhiannon

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Re: Questions on pagan beliefs - from topic from historical Jesus thread
« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2017, 11:16:44 PM »
There is a connection between Fremasonry and ceremonial magic. There's the Order of the Golden Dawn for example.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermetic_Order_of_the_Golden_Dawn

I wouldn't necessarily put ceremonial magic in with paganism, but some do. After all, some of the Golden Dawn stuff ended up influencing Wicca. But then a friend who is a ceremonial magician rejects the idea that he's a pagan. Which doesn't really answer anything.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 11:21:12 PM by Rhiannon »

Shaker

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Re: Questions on pagan beliefs - from topic from historical Jesus thread
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2017, 11:20:38 PM »
There is a connection between Fremasonry and ceremonial magic. There's the Order of the Golden Dawn for example.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermetic_Order_of_the_Golden_Dawn

I wouldn't necessarily put ceremonial magic in with paganism, but some do. After all, some of the Golden Dawn stuff ended up in Wicca.
Connection? Blimey ... Crowley pretty well stitched them into a seamless whole.

Mind you, he begged, borrowed and stole from everywhere, everyone and everything.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Questions on pagan beliefs - from topic from historical Jesus thread
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2017, 11:22:57 PM »
Connection? Blimey ... Crowley pretty well stitched them into a seamless whole.

Mind you, he begged, borrowed and stole from everywhere, everyone and everything.

Yeah but the majority of Freemasons aren't disciples of Crowley.

Shaker

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Re: Questions on pagan beliefs - from topic from historical Jesus thread
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2017, 11:29:05 PM »
Yeah but the majority of Freemasons aren't disciples of Crowley.
No of course not - just that he ripped off Masonic ritual left, right and centre for the GD (as well as the OTO).
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Questions on pagan beliefs - from topic from historical Jesus thread
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2017, 11:30:29 PM »
I'm not a fan of ceremonial magic. None of it really interests me particularly.

Shaker

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Re: Questions on pagan beliefs - from topic from historical Jesus thread
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2017, 11:34:15 PM »
I'm not a fan of ceremonial magic. None of it really interests me particularly.
I'm not a 'fan' - but I'm a fan of Alan Moore and he's a CM so I suppose there's a vicarious interest.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Questions on pagan beliefs - from topic from historical Jesus thread
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2017, 11:43:15 PM »
I've only got so many hours in my day and I'd rather be reading something on shamanics or herbalism.

Owlswing

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Re: Questions on pagan beliefs - from topic from historical Jesus thread
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2017, 12:13:09 AM »

 I'd say Freemasonry has very little to do with Paganism (or any other religion, for that matter) There used to be umpteen 'societies of secrecy' usually connected to trades. A prime example was the 'Ploughmans' word' which had its' share of ritual and rigmarole, some of it involving ingesting horse dung (yes, horse dung!) The "horseman's gripping word" was supposed to be a mysterious word which would control any team of horses at the plough. Most such groups died the same death as their industry (I suppose swearing at a tractor doesn't have the same mistique) However freemasonry was continued, mainly by middle and upper classes, as a kind of 'hellfire club' for the refined, acquiring more 'sophisticated' ritual as the years went on.


The Freemason's honour (?) the Great Architect of the Universe - hardly what you would define as Chruistian.

The officers sit at the four points of the compass, as do those 'officiating' during a pagan ritual.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Anchorman

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Re: Questions on pagan beliefs - from topic from historical Jesus thread
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2017, 08:38:36 AM »
Yep. Most mainstream denominations of the Christian Church have doubts about the 'craft' - my own denomination included - even suggesting it might be another religion entirely. Whilst not kicking anyone out of the pews, the official line is that the thig is discouraged and 'inconsistant with the Christian faith'. The General Assembly issued an open letter to that effect a few years ago.. Since this is the Pagan board, I won't bore the pants off you by posting the link, which is couched in typical Kirk speak (Though if you're really bored, I can do so.)
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Rhiannon

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Re: Questions on pagan beliefs - from topic from historical Jesus thread
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2017, 11:04:38 AM »
I think one of the saddest things is the way in which the various churches teach a fear of paganism. It is there even in liberal Christianity and it caused me real problems in my life. It's a bit like the way some churches make people fear their sexuality. I feared my own spirituality, and as with sexuality that is a part of my identity. I don't get *why* paganism is singled out still, it seems positively medieval. Yes, these days some churches do include paganism in Interfaith, but they are the exceptions. When I began to explore my pagan path I was staggered at how many pagans have been abused by churches and by Christians for who they are in the same way that many gay people have been. And so there's a huge level of mistrust, exactly the same as I've encountered on the gay community. It's such a shame.

Shaker

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Re: Questions on pagan beliefs - from topic from historical Jesus thread
« Reply #45 on: July 12, 2017, 11:26:48 AM »
I think one of the saddest things is the way in which the various churches teach a fear of paganism. It is there even in liberal Christianity and it caused me real problems in my life. It's a bit like the way some churches make people fear their sexuality. I feared my own spirituality, and as with sexuality that is a part of my identity. I don't get *why* paganism is singled out still, it seems positively medieval. Yes, these days some churches do include paganism in Interfaith, but they are the exceptions. When I began to explore my pagan path I was staggered at how many pagans have been abused by churches and by Christians for who they are in the same way that many gay people have been. And so there's a huge level of mistrust, exactly the same as I've encountered on the gay community. It's such a shame.
It's been there practically from the very beginning, though. Rival brands, rival allegiances, rival gods. Monotheisms by definition insist on one way and only one way - pluralism is verboten. That's the quintessence of monotheism - there's only one god therefore there's only this way, and all the other ways are at best wrong and misguided - foolish errors -, at worst downright evil.

Add to this Christianity's radical mistrust (at best) of the material world and of sexuality. Pagans then and pagans now think of the world and sexuality as things to be celebrated and to rejoice over; for the mediaeval Christian by contrast the three great enemies were the world, the flesh and the devil. That sort of shit tends to stick.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 11:30:24 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Questions on pagan beliefs - from topic from historical Jesus thread
« Reply #46 on: July 12, 2017, 11:56:33 AM »
This stinking little piece of vitriol illustrates my point I think.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9206178/Its-beyond-belief-to-teach-witchcraft.html

I get that in the past it was about power, of course it was. But today? Really? I am still baffled at how modern, liberal, well educated people can freak out at the very thought of pagan belief, nature worship, let alone polytheism - and the divine feminine of course.

Shaker

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Re: Questions on pagan beliefs - from topic from historical Jesus thread
« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2017, 11:58:50 AM »
This stinking little piece of vitriol illustrates my point I think.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9206178/Its-beyond-belief-to-teach-witchcraft.html

I get that in the past it was about power, of course it was. But today? Really? I am still baffled at how modern, liberal, well educated people

I refer you to the religious adherence of the author of the article you provided a link to (which I have read before) and invite you to choose some other adjectives.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Questions on pagan beliefs - from topic from historical Jesus thread
« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2017, 12:05:42 PM »
I refer you to the religious adherence of the author of the article you provided a link to (which I have read before) and invite you to choose some other adjectives.

I've posted it here before too.



Owlswing

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Re: Questions on pagan beliefs - from topic from historical Jesus thread
« Reply #49 on: July 12, 2017, 04:09:38 PM »
This stinking little piece of vitriol illustrates my point I think.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9206178/Its-beyond-belief-to-teach-witchcraft.html

I get that in the past it was about power, of course it was. But today? Really? I am still baffled at how modern, liberal, well educated people can freak out at the very thought of pagan belief, nature worship, let alone polytheism - and the divine feminine of course.

It is a shame that the 'Comments' section on this article is closed - I had some vitriol of my own to add!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!