Author Topic: Absence of a naturalistic explanation does not imply a supernatural one  (Read 6041 times)

Sassy

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Well, obviously.

What if white was black and black was white?

Why is there no natural explanation for why we call white, white and black, black?

It does not require a supernatural explanation in the light or lack of a natural explanation.

Something are just what they are.

But if you are applying the term to the earth and the atmosphere around the earth.
What explanation is there for it to exist in a space which is devoid of all life that we can see?

Truth is man does not hold on to the truths which matter. As man procreated he forgot to remember.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Sassy,

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Why is there no natural explanation for why we call white, white and black, black?

There is - language is a naturalistic phenomenon.

You're very confused.

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It does not require a supernatural explanation in the light or lack of a natural explanation.

Tell Vlad that.

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But if you are applying the term to the earth and the atmosphere around the earth.

Eh? It was a discussion about logic.

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What explanation is there for it to exist in a space which is devoid of all life that we can see?

Lots of reasons, all well understood. So?

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Truth is man does not hold on to the truths which matter. As man procreated he forgot to remember.

That's not "Truth" - it's just your personal truth.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 02:52:45 PM by bluehillside »
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floo

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What explanation is there for it to exist in a space which is devoid of all life that we can see?


It is quite possible there is life on other planets, just because we haven't made contact yet doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Earth is just a small planet in this vast universe.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Of course they do. Your big mistake here is to assume that our current level of knowledge of possible naturalistic causes tells us anything about what naturalistic causes there might be, whether or not we ever discover them. Yours is the identical reasoning of the Thor-ist – he didn’t have a natural explanation for thunder, so he invoked a non-natural one to plug the gap.

I don't think a Thor-ist would be your kind of person Hillside. He was not a naturalist waiting for a natural explanation. That's just projecting a version of thee sen.
I on the other hand am a methodological naturalist and recognise that as a tool for analysing the material and er, that's it.
You look upon methodological naturalism and see the key to all the reality there can possibly be. You are the romantic fool here... Hillside. You are the one in La La Land  HO HO HO HE HE HE.

bluehillside Retd.

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Vlad,

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I don't think a Thor-ist would be your kind of person Hillside. He was not a naturalist waiting for a natural explanation. That's just projecting a version of thee sen.

And another straw man. No-one suggested that he would have been “a naturalist waiting for a natural explanation”. He’d have been pretty much the opposite of that in fact – “Thor” was all the answer he needed, just as "God" is for you. And for the same reason - absence of an alternative explanation.

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I on the other hand am a methodological naturalist and recognise that as a tool for analysing the material and er, that's it.

All very nice, but it says nothing about your basic mistake of thinking that the absence of a natural explanation implies that there must therefore be a non-natural one.

It doesn’t.
 
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You…

Why do I sense another straw man coming on?

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… look upon methodological naturalism and see the key to all the reality there can possibly be. You are the romantic fool here... Hillside. You are the one in La La Land  HO HO HO HE HE HE.

Bingo!

And you are a flat out liar of the first order, possibly pathologically so.

I’ve told you over and over again that I think no such thing, so why even bother lying about it again? What I actually say (and have always said) is that naturalism/materialism provides a working explanatory model for the way the universe appears to be. That's it - no more, no less.

It tells you nothing whatever about conjectures concerning the non-natural/non-material that may or may not exist (whatever “exist” would mean in that context). Your problem though is that nor can anything else – so all you have is conjecture which, for reasons known only to yourself, you choose to reify on the back of a series of logically false arguments.

So do you fancy actually attempting to tackle your problem here, or is lying the only tactic you have left?     
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 03:46:44 PM by bluehillside »
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Shaker

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I don't think a Thor-ist would be your kind of person Hillside. He was not a naturalist waiting for a natural explanation. That's just projecting a version of thee sen.
I on the other hand am a methodological naturalist and recognise that as a tool for analysing the material and er, that's it.
All good so far; I would have said that the next question would be "What tool(s) do you have for analysing what you regard as the non-material?" except that that's question-begging and already, even at this stage, assumes too much. The next question is: "What reasons do you have for supposing that there's any such thing as the 'non-material' in the first place?" If those reasons stand up to scrutiny, then we start asking questions about how you can examine such claims.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 03:38:06 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Vlad,

No they weren't, but it doesn't matter much either way. Use "supernatural" or "non natural" as you please.

Spectacularly wrong - that's only a "problem" because it's a straw man of your invention. What's actually said is, "There is no natural explanation and therefore we don't know".

One possible answer is that there is a natural answer and we'll find it in due course.

Another possible answer is that there is a natural answer, but we'll never have the wit or the tools to know what it is.

Another possible answer is that the explanation is non-natural (albeit that any such claim would be so beset with definitional problems that it's hard t see how it could ever be demonstrated).

At last.

Although there is still something to clear up....let's call it the agnostic's conceit. That would be the ''WE'' don't know part.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 06:26:03 PM by Emergence-The Musical »

bluehillside Retd.

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Vlad,

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At last.

"At last" what?

You're committing the fallacy of the vacuous truth here. Calling a conjecture "non-natural" or "supernatural" makes no difference to the point under discussion, namely the very bad reasoning you attempted about the absence of a naturalistic explanation implying a non-natural/supernatural one.

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Although there is still something to clear up....let's call it the agnostic's conceit. That would be the ''WE'' don't know part.

No, the only thing to "clear up" is for you either to counter-argue the falsification of your claim, or to withdraw it.

If you could do either without the relentless lying that would be good too.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 06:51:59 PM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Bubbles

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Natural vs supernatural

You can't assume but...........

What happens if science finds God? Or that the universe was started by God with the help of the Minions using a special energy that cannot exist in our universe.

Do we move the goalposts and decide God and his minions are perfectly natural? And that the energy that can't belong in our universe is perfectly natural too, for where it is?

Even if something existed outside our universe and our known natural laws, it doesn't mean it isn't natural for where it is.

Scientists play with ideas of multiverses where the natural laws may be different to what is familiar to us.

That raises the question, how high do we set the bar before deciding something is supernatural?

Or does the bar not actually exist? Just our classification.



Shaker

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It strikes me that 'supernatural' as a concept performs a similar function to the word 'tomorrow' - we never actually get to tomorrow because when the referent of tomorrow is reached it's today, and tomorrow keeps rolling on out of sight over the horizon.

Similarly, if something is posited as supernatural but then we discover something about it through scientific/empirical means, then it's a natural phenomenon at least to some extent.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

SwordOfTheSpirit

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Which part of "If we don't know, we don't know and shouldn't pretend we do by plugging the gap with any old guff" don't you get, Vlad?

Erm ... the bit that claims to know something about that which we don't know?
I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.

Nearly Sane

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Erm ... the bit that claims to know something about that which we don't know?
So you think Vlad is talking nonsense.

Bubbles

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It strikes me that 'supernatural' as a concept performs a similar function to the word 'tomorrow' - we never actually get to tomorrow because when the referent of tomorrow is reached it's today, and tomorrow keeps rolling on out of sight over the horizon.

Similarly, if something is posited as supernatural but then we discover something about it through scientific/empirical means, then it's a natural phenomenon at least to some extent.

Yes I think you are right, it's very much like tomorrow  :D

Shaker

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Erm ... the bit that claims to know something about that which we don't know?
Which is what bit?

Claiming to know something about which we don't know seems to be the preserve of the God-invokers.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 08:01:30 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Gordon

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Erm ... the bit that claims to know something about that which we don't know?

You seem to be using the word 'know' in a ridiculous manner.

Sriram

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It is like the EM spectrum. Only a small range of phenomena are visible to our eyes.

Similarly, only a small band of phenomena in the universe could be sensed by us and our instruments. There could be a large range of phenomena that lie outside our senses.

If  and when we find some of these phenomena influencing our lives we tend to think of them as 'supernatural.  They are no more supernatural than Gamma Rays and Cosmic rays.  They are perfectly natural but are not available for direct scrutiny by us.

Bubbles

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My personal opinion ( which isn't worth a lot, I know 😉) is that science doesn't rule out some of the things thought of as supernatural.

An example would be people seeing ghosts, or occasionally reporting seeing past battles or scenes from the future ( which would also explain ufo's maybe)

If you put all the superstitions and beliefs aside for a moment, with this interpretation of time where the past present and future may not be as we perceive them, we can't rule out under very rare circumstances we perceive an anomaly.

http://www.physicscentral.com/explore/plus/timeless.cfm

It would explain a lot.

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20140624-the-man-who-saw-time-freeze

It could be just the brain, but what if it allows us to see something about time which our brains usually filter so our world makes sense to us?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-452833/Is-REALLY-proof-man-future.html

This one is interesting

http://coolinterestingstuff.com/time-slip-mystery-flight-into-the-future

This kind of links in to the time thread elsewhere, but I thought it was more relevant here.

If time isn't as we think it is, how do we know ( under very rare circumstances) that people are not actually experiencing an anomaly and getting a glimpse of things we are not normally aware of?

This sort of explains how time could be a lot of how's 😁

http://www.sciencefocus.com/feature/black-holes/incredible-truth-about-time

Just wildly speculating here 😉💐
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 07:47:34 AM by Rose »

Bubbles

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http://www.sciencefocus.com/feature/black-holes/incredible-truth-about-time

It makes the point that time could be a series of nows.

Walt Zingmatilder

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http://www.sciencefocus.com/feature/black-holes/incredible-truth-about-time

It makes the point that time could be a series of nows.
Thank you for this.
Smolin used the shelving of the concept of time from mainstream physics to outline that physicists became governed more by maths than seeking data and experimentation.

The knock on effect has been the ignorance of key events in cosmology by non physicist naturalists. Dawkins is able to skate over possible events at the beginning.

Antitheists feel themselves able to casually introduce ideas of infinite universes into their stock of arguments including 'This is the way the universe is no explanation needed' because time is an unnecessary consideration

The irony is that Smolin appears in The God Delusion as a NeoDarwinian hero of Dawkins.

Shaker

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Dawkins - check.

Antitheists - check.

Please amend your post to insert Stalinist equally pointlessly somewhere so that we have the full set of Vladdisms.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Thank you for this.
Smolin used the shelving of the concept of time from mainstream physics to outline that physicists became governed more by maths than seeking data and experimentation.

The knock on effect has been the ignorance of key events in cosmology by non physicist naturalists. Dawkins is able to skate over possible events at the beginning.

Antitheists feel themselves able to casually introduce ideas of infinite universes into their stock of arguments including 'This is the way the universe is no explanation needed' because time is an unnecessary consideration. An attitude Stalin may have approved of.

The irony is that Smolin appears in The God Delusion as a NeoDarwinian hero of Dawkins.



Shaker

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The hat trick of bullshit and creepily obsessive bullshit at that - thank you.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 08:35:23 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Nearly Sane

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The hat trick of bullshit and creepily obsessive bullshit at that - thank you.
Surely he deserves a doggy treat for performing?