Author Topic: Depicting Humans In Islamic Art !!!  (Read 3097 times)

trippymonkey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4550
Depicting Humans In Islamic Art !!!
« on: July 04, 2017, 02:49:40 PM »
A most wonderful prog was on BBC 4 last night at 10pm.
Called 'The Hidden Art Of Islam' presented by Rageh Omar.
It was all about images of the Pilgrimage to Mecca & illustrations of it throughout Islamic history primarily BY Muslim artists
It was discussing where it says in the Quran you cannot depict living things in any manner at all but primarily in art forms. It doesn't say anything about it just says about making idols & worshipping THEM.
One, in my opinion, sensible Muslim chappie says there's nowhere in the tradition that says you cannot do this. He expands this by saying if he draws a man or any living thing, he HASN'T created anything but only a depiction of an already created 'thing'. Fine by me. Two dimensional, flat, ie pics etc, are OK but not statues.

Of course then another guy thought the complete opposite - that NO living thing, plant OR animal - human can be depicted in any way. Of course he never provided any proof....

Now we know we have the most beautiful geometric designs brought about BY this very attitude so SOME good came from it anyway. Paintings such as what we call Persian miniatures full of depictions of human figures, plants & animals BUT in flat form with no attempt at realism, important point, abounded many centuries ago since & we still have them & great this is.

A lot of the prog concerned the Kaabah in Makkah. How this is basically a box etc. Several modern British artists were shown with their own works too.
The prog didn't go into detail about how Makkah came under Mohd's possession & THAT'S another topic entirely so..... Although it DOES look to me as if they ARE praying to a box, even though they say God is everywhere then why do Muslims 'need' this as one of the main tenets of Islam - ie to visit it? Big money-maker for the surrounding areas???

Do please see it if you haven't set your recorders.

Nick


Robbie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7512
Re: Depicting Humans In Islamic Art !!!
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2017, 12:17:13 AM »
I've only just read thisTrippy & I studied Islamic art at one time, and copied it/drew & painted in similar style. I remember going to an exhibition of Islamic art with school, either 1976 or 77, at Goldsmiths College.

I haven't seen the programme with Rageh Omar but will try to get it on iplayer.  I know I'll love it.

Regarding the Kaabah, there is a story about it. Up to individuals whether or not they believe it but most observant Muslims do. I found this online, in something called the Quora, which explains it better & more concisely than I can do from memory :-

'The Kaaba is a building at the center of Islam's most sacred mosque. The Kaaba is built around a sacred black stone, a meteorite that Muslims believe was placed by Abraham and Ishmael in a corner of the Kaaba, a symbol of God's covenant with Abraham and Ishmael and, by extension, with the Muslim community itself. It is embedded in the eastern corner of the Kaaba. It is considered the "House of Allah" and has a similar role to the Tabernacle and Holy of Holies in Judaism.

Every year millions of Muslims travel to Mecca for the hajj, umrah, one of the five pillars of Islam. Muslims travel to Islam’s most sacred mosque, al-Masjid al-Haram, during the six-day pilgrimage. Mecca is thought to be the place where Ishmael and his mother Hagar were provided with a spring of water in the desert.'

There are similarities between that and certain things - places, objects - which are revered in Christianity, Judaism and Hinduism by many adherents of those religions but others do not place too much significance on them, preferring a simpler, more cerebral faith.

From my pov, I wouldn't go out of my way to visit anything of that kind, or go on a pilgrimage, but I can see how a lot of people coming together to pray en masse is useful for believers. Those I know who have done so have returned refreshed & renewed (I'd come back knackered and be longing for a bit of peace & quiet on my own but different strokes & all that).

I'll come back when I've watched 'The Hidden Art of Islam'
PS - can't access the programme,which is quite an old one, not available on iplayer. Should've guessed that as it was on BBC4. Might be repeated yet again though. In the meantime I'll see if I can find it anywhere else.

Bingo, it's on youtube. Will watch it but not now, bedtime.  Nighty nighty.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQm10zfoFCM

Edit - still haven't watched, lot happened but seeing as I am a lady of leisure until middle of next week, I can assure Iwill look at it before then.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 04:08:04 PM by Robinson »
True Wit is Nature to Advantage drest,
          What oft was Thought, but ne’er so well Exprest

trippymonkey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4550
Re: Depicting Humans In Islamic Art !!!
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2017, 09:00:20 PM »
An excellent prog I recall.
Unfortunately for Muslims re Mecca & The Kaaba - there's no reference whatsoever to anything at all concerning them in any version of The Bible in all its myriad versions.

In fact it's quite well known Al-Lah was-is a pagan Arab deity found by Mohd to be the 'biggest' of the many versions of God IN the Kaaba. He took it hoping to rally many to his 'cause'. It didn't work however & he was thrown out for stirring the proverbial !!!
We all know what happened then, as he came back with lots of troops & took the Kaaba over ?!!?!?!?
We're now seeing what IS are doing as it mirrors more or less exactly what their very founder did in his life !!!

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8952
Re: Depicting Humans In Islamic Art !!!
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2017, 01:36:16 PM »
Quite well known by whom? My understanding as a Muslim is that Allah is the Arabic name for a monotheistic concept of God.

Also, not seeing the similarities between ISIS attacking unarmed people and the Muslim traditions about the 7th century wars between armies.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Robbie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7512
Re: Depicting Humans In Islamic Art !!!
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2017, 05:15:52 PM »
You've strayed from the point of the thread, Trippy, which was Islamic art.  That's not a crime of course but art in itself is interesting enough without making it political.
True Wit is Nature to Advantage drest,
          What oft was Thought, but ne’er so well Exprest

trippymonkey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4550
Re: Depicting Humans In Islamic Art !!!
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2017, 09:17:13 PM »
Agreed to a certain extent but Islam doesn't work like that.

Don't know if YOU know certain groups insist NO living thing can be depicted in art or any other means. Copying 'God's' work, if you will.
Mind you, very many Muslims think most if not all they actually believe is IN the Quran anyway but in actuality the beliefs are from the not reliable Hadiths or Sayings Of The Prophet. These sayings are not considered very reliable even by many Muslims too.

Political ??? Most surely !!! ;) :)

Nick

trippymonkey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4550
Re: Depicting Humans In Islamic Art !!!
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2017, 09:20:56 PM »
BTW Gabriella...
You as much as I should know very well the name Al-Lah was the moon god of the pagan Arabs in Mohd's time. He took the biggest name IN the Kaabah & tried to rally them all round to his 'cause' but they didn't fall for it & eventually threw him out of Makkah for trouble-making !!!

MMMM Moon god eh ?? And what do we have on the Islamic flag ????
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 08:20:38 AM by trippymonkey »

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8952
Re: Depicting Humans In Islamic Art !!!
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2017, 12:52:10 PM »
BTW Gabriella...
You as much as I should know very well the name Al-Lah was the moon god of the pagan Arabs in Mohd's time. He took the biggest name IN the Kaabah & tried to rally them all round to his 'cause' but they didn't fall for it & eventually threw him out of Makkah for trouble-making !!!

MMMM Moon god eh ?? And what do we have on the Islamic flag ????
Like I said, your beliefs are not part of the Muslim traditions on this issue.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 63423
Re: Depicting Humans In Islamic Art !!!
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2017, 01:14:04 PM »
BTW Gabriella...
You as much as I should know very well the name Al-Lah was the moon god of the pagan Arabs in Mohd's time. He took the biggest name IN the Kaabah & tried to rally them all round to his 'cause' but they didn't fall for it & eventually threw him out of Makkah for trouble-making !!!

MMMM Moon god eh ?? And what do we have on the Islamic flag ????
Were Arab Christians worshipping this moon god?


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah_as_Moon-god
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 01:18:46 PM by Nearly Sane »

trippymonkey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4550
Re: Depicting Humans In Islamic Art !!!
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2017, 07:05:57 PM »
Wouldn't have thought so - why do you ask ?

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 63423
Re: Depicting Humans In Islamic Art !!!
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2017, 07:08:02 PM »
Wouldn't have thought so - why do you ask ?
because they use the same term. It's covered in the link.

Robbie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7512
Re: Depicting Humans In Islamic Art !!!
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2017, 07:52:39 PM »
Agreed to a certain extent but Islam doesn't work like that.

Don't know if YOU know certain groups insist NO living thing can be depicted in art or any other means. Copying 'God's' work, if you will.
Mind you, very many Muslims think most if not all they actually believe is IN the Quran anyway but in actuality the beliefs are from the not reliable Hadiths or Sayings Of The Prophet. These sayings are not considered very reliable even by many Muslims too.

Political ??? Most surely !!! ;) :)

Nick

I don't know how refraining from reproducing living things pictorially is political.  As you say, not all Muslims believe that, they take photographs and draw.

As for the rest of your post, does it matter anyway?  Islamic art is what it is, it's beautiful, fascinating, unique & tells stories its own way.  I don't see any point in trying to make something else out of it.  It exists to be appreciated but if you don't care for it, no-one is forcing you. 
True Wit is Nature to Advantage drest,
          What oft was Thought, but ne’er so well Exprest

trippymonkey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4550
Re: Depicting Humans In Islamic Art !!!
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2017, 08:08:30 AM »
Thought I already made that point.