No sex

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

Interesting video about Japan and why 40%  of youngsters (18-34) are virgins....and 64% are not in any relationship.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-asia-40511655/japanese-young-people-not-having-sex Moderator more specific link added as original was to page that updated so did not necessairly have specified video

(Scroll down for the video.)

Natures way of reducing population or porn or women's lib or basic insecurities...or all of them could be responsible for this situation!! 

Likely to happen in Britain sometime?!

Any views?

Sriram

[Shaker]

As Eliza Dolittle put it, not bloody likely.

[Sriram]

Oh...thanks Gordon....for the link!   

[Sriram]

This is a phenomenon i am finding to some extent even in India. Suddenly there are many boys and girls in their late twenties and early thirties who are unmarried and apparently not interested either.  Most of them are not having any girlfriends or boyfriends and not had sex either.

It is not yet 43% as in Japan but it might get there, I am afraid. Very sad and worrying.

I think it will be a global phenomenon very soon.

[Nearly Sane]

Why are you afraid?

[floo]

This is a phenomenon i am finding to some extent even in India. Suddenly there are many boys and girls in their late twenties and early thirties who are unmarried and apparently not interested either.  Most of them are not having any girlfriends or boyfriends and not had sex either.

It is not yet 43% as in Japan but it might get there, I am afraid. Very sad and worrying.

I think it will be a global phenomenon very soon.

Why is it sad and worrying?

[Robbie]

Doesn't sound sad to me. Most of them will pair up with another eventually, in the meantime they're enjoying being single and bulding up career.
Quite sensible.

[Harrowby Hall]

Here is the Guardian's approach to the same topic, published a few years ago.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/20/young-people-japan-stopped-having-sex

I won't comment about the Indian sex-ratio imbalance (it's not really relevant, I and don't want to raise Sriram's blood pressure) but I wonder whether what we are seeing is not a biological consequence of gross overcrowding? The population density of Japan is already about half again that of the United Kingdom (if the total landmass is considered) but the great majority of Japanese live in a narrow strip by the coastline. This results in very dense urban regions - Greater Tokyo approaches 40,000,000.

I recall (almost half a century ago) as a Psychology undergraduate learning of observations of pathological behaviour in rats which were forced to live in overcrowded colonies. Perhaps the reluctance to engage in behaviour likely to lead to reproduction is psychogenic or even biogenic. I don't know, but perhaps it may be a consequence of, say, high levels of specific pheromones, which cause a  suppression of sexual behaviour?

[Sriram]

Here is the Guardian's approach to the same topic, published a few years ago.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/20/young-people-japan-stopped-having-sex

I won't comment about the Indian sex-ratio imbalance (it's not really relevant, I and don't want to raise Sriram's blood pressure) but I wonder whether what we are seeing is not a biological consequence of gross overcrowding? The population density of Japan is already about half again that of the United Kingdom (if the total landmass is considered) but the great majority of Japanese live in a narrow strip by the coastline. This results in very dense urban regions - Greater Tokyo approaches 40,000,000.

I recall (almost half a century ago) as a Psychology undergraduate learning of observations of pathological behaviour in rats which were forced to live in overcrowded colonies. Perhaps the reluctance to engage in behaviour likely to lead to reproduction is psychogenic or even biogenic. I don't know, but perhaps it may be a consequence of, say, high levels of specific pheromones, which cause a  suppression of sexual behaviour?

HH,

I really don't know why you even mentioned the sex ratio on this subject. If you imagine that men are not finding women to marry or something of that sort...that is absolutely nonsense.  The sex ratio is skewed only in some small villages in the north and not in the country as a whole, though it could be lower, no doubt.

The average sex ratio for India (15-24 years) is about 1.13 males to 1 female. In China it is 1.14.  Portugal at 1.13. In Japan it is 1.11.  In the UK and US it is 1.05. In some European countries it is as high as 1.19.   

So...nothing as alarming as 'not finding females to marry' or anything of that sort (if that is what you are implying). 

There are plenty of boys and girls of marriageable age but many of them seem to be avoiding marriage, though it is nowhere near 43%.

[Sriram]

Well...the bug seems to have invaded Britain too since no one here seems to feel it is anything to worry about.

As far as I and many Indians are concerned, Life is primarily about marrying and raising a family. A job or career is meant as a means of livelihood meant to support a family and not as an end in itself.  Both from a personal perspective and from a social perspective the family is most important.

How can a career ever be an alternative to marriage and family?!!!

To see youngsters preferring to stay single when they should be having a family unit of their own, is very sad indeed. Population control is about limiting the family size, not about remaining celibate. So the population aspect also does not make sense.

Yes...it is sad that 25 years from now many of these people in their old age will remain single never having had a family of their own.

[trippymonkey]

Sriram bhaiya
Are you about 70 now?!!? 
Why do you feel as humans we must breed & carry on the human race??? Not enough of us or are we all being killed off with wars & such.??
You know very well about my travelling to & personal links with India & having so many friends out there now. Nobody has ever talked about his sort of thing when I've been there.

How can a career ever be an alternative to marriage and family?!!!....

May I feel you were being ironic or brainwashed SHOULD be having a family ? Excuse me?? You also say MANY Indians feel like you. Do you have a number?

Nick

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Well...the bug seems to have invaded Britain too since no one here seems to feel it is anything to worry about.

As far as I and many Indians are concerned, Life is primarily about marrying and raising a family. A job or career is meant as a means of livelihood meant to support a family and not as an end in itself.  Both from a personal perspective and from a social perspective the family is most important.

How can a career ever be an alternative to marriage and family?!!!

To see youngsters preferring to stay single when they should be having a family unit of their own, is very sad indeed. Population control is about limiting the family size, not about remaining celibate. So the population aspect also does not make sense.

Yes...it is sad that 25 years from now many of these people in their old age will remain single never having had a family of their own.

I don't know about Japan but it's pretty expensive to get married and raise a family in the UK and with the added increased risk of relationships being unhappy or breaking down altogether and the emotional and financial costs of that, I can understand why some young people are reluctant to commit to the whole family and marriage idea.

The video you linked to seemed to show some young people in Japan feeling that the costs of starting or being in a relationship - trauma of rejection and restriction of freedom - outweighs the benefits of companionship and sex and family life. Maybe their parents' generation were more emotionally robust, less discerning, didn't mind the drudgery, had fewer options, or maybe their cost of living and future prospects and expectations were such that relationships did not have the risks attached that scare off some of the younger generation today.

[Rhiannon]

I think that the pressured work culture in Japan probably is a factor. If you are quite literally in danger of working yourself to death then not only will you be less robust emotionally if things start to crater, you don't have the emotional and physical resources to get involved in a relationship to start with.

[Harrowby Hall]

Sriram

You just can't resist rising to the bait, can you! You perceive an insult and reach for knuckledusters.  I note that the figures you select come from a Wikipedia article which is headed with a warning that it may not be reliable and needs updating. And that was in October 2014.

Even so, you are still selective. The possibly unreliable article states that the birth ratio F:M in India is 1.12 and in China is 1:1.15. However, Japan it is 1:1.06 and Portugal 1:1.07.

*  *  *  *  *  *

Be that as it may, I find your statement "Life is primarily about marrying and raising a family." rather touching and very human. I cannot think of anyone who would basically disagree with that. I think though that by blaming the career culture by itself may not be sufficient to explain the reluctance to marry.

My view about the sex drive in homo sapiens is that its primary purpose is not reproduction per se but creating a stable relationship within which the human infant, with its extraordinarily lengthy period of dependency, can be raised in safety. The behaviour described in Japan is - frankly - pathological. Young people appear to be rejecting opportunities to associate and become physically and emotionally close. I don't think that commitment to a career is the reason for this, I consider that it is possible that some environmental factor may be interfering with the sex (in its widest sense) drive. Perhaps (although I am not aware of any convincing evidence that pheromones are important inhuman behave) that the sheer variety and density of human sex pheromones is suppressing the sex drive in many individuals - well, it's a hypothesis.

I have visited Japan on several occasions and I love the place. But the human density is terrifying - watch the behaviour of commuters at Shinjuku or Ikebukuru stations: people behave like automatons. Perhaps other aspects of social behaviour are affected as well.

[Shaker]

To see youngsters preferring to stay single when they should be having a family unit of their own, is very sad indeed.

There's no 'should' about it.

What's genuinely sad is that people might feel pressured into adopting a lifestyle of enormous responsibility and long-term colossal expense that they don't want because some idiot thinks they should do.

[trippymonkey]

Shaker
EXACTLY !!!!

[ekim]

I recall (almost half a century ago) as a Psychology undergraduate learning of observations of pathological behaviour in rats which were forced to live in overcrowded colonies. Perhaps the reluctance to engage in behaviour likely to lead to reproduction is psychogenic or even biogenic. I don't know, but perhaps it may be a consequence of, say, high levels of specific pheromones, which cause a  suppression of sexual behaviour?

You're probably referring to  John Calhoun's experiments with rodents, the results summed up as:
"Males became aggressive, some moving in groups, attacking females and the young. Mating behaviours were disrupted. Some males became exclusively homosexual. Others became pansexual and hypersexual, attempting to mount any rat they encountered. Mothers neglected their infants, first failing to construct proper nests, and then carelessly abandoning and even attacking their pups. In certain sections of the pens, infant mortality rose as high as 96%, the dead cannibalized by adults. Subordinate animals withdrew psychologically, surviving in a physical sense but at an immense psychological cost. They were the majority in the late phases of growth, existing as a vacant, huddled mass in the centre of the pens. Unable to breed, the population plummeted and did not recover. The crowded rodents had lost the ability to co-exist harmoniously, even after the population numbers once again fell to low levels. At a certain density, they had ceased to act like rats and mice, and the change was permanent. "

[Harrowby Hall]

Ekim

Thank you.

[Sriram]

Sriram

You just can't resist rising to the bait, can you! You perceive an insult and reach for knuckledusters.  I note that the figures you select come from a Wikipedia article which is headed with a warning that it may not be reliable and needs updating. And that was in October 2014.

Even so, you are still selective. The possibly unreliable article states that the birth ratio F:M in India is 1.12 and in China is 1:1.15. However, Japan it is 1:1.06 and Portugal 1:1.07.

*  *  *  *  *  *

Be that as it may, I find your statement "Life is primarily about marrying and raising a family." rather touching and very human. I cannot think of anyone who would not basically disagree with that. I think though that by blaming the career culture by itself may not be sufficient to explain the reluctance to marry.

My view about the sex drive in homo sapiens is that its primary purpose is not reproduction per se but creating a stable relationship within which the human infant, with its extraordinarily lengthy period of dependency, can be raised in safety. The behaviour described in Japan is - frankly - pathological. Young people appear to be rejecting opportunities to associate and become physically and emotionally close. I don't think that commitment to a career is the reason for this, I consider that it is possible that some environmental factor may be interfering with the sex (in its widest sense) drive. Perhaps (although I am not aware of any convincing evidence that pheromones are important inhuman behave) that the sheer variety and density of human sex pheromones is suppressing the sex drive in many individuals - well, it's a hypothesis.

I have visited Japan on several occasions and I love the place. But the human density is terrifying - watch the behaviour of commuters at Shinjuku or Ikebukuru stations: people behave like automatons. Perhaps other aspects of social behaviour are affected as well.

I don't want you feeling ignored HH!     I was referring to the figures in the age group 15-24. I don't know which group you are referring to.

Your third para has so many negatives I am not sure what you mean..

Yes...the reasons for not wanting to have sex  could be due to the population density, emotional insecurities, job pressures and perhaps many other factors.  Whatever they are, it is still a pity IMO.

[Sriram]

You're probably referring to  John Calhoun's experiments with rodents, the results summed up as:
"Males became aggressive, some moving in groups, attacking females and the young. Mating behaviours were disrupted. Some males became exclusively homosexual. Others became pansexual and hypersexual, attempting to mount any rat they encountered. Mothers neglected their infants, first failing to construct proper nests, and then carelessly abandoning and even attacking their pups. In certain sections of the pens, infant mortality rose as high as 96%, the dead cannibalized by adults. Subordinate animals withdrew psychologically, surviving in a physical sense but at an immense psychological cost. They were the majority in the late phases of growth, existing as a vacant, huddled mass in the centre of the pens. Unable to breed, the population plummeted and did not recover. The crowded rodents had lost the ability to co-exist harmoniously, even after the population numbers once again fell to low levels. At a certain density, they had ceased to act like rats and mice, and the change was permanent. "

Thanks ekim.  I think some scientist had pointed to this study some years  ago and said that such a situation is likely to occur in humans...though I think many disagreed at that time.  He has been proved correct I think.

I am surprised that many in Britain seem to find this situation quite acceptable. That is amazing considering the population is not very high. 

[Sriram]

I don't know about Japan but it's pretty expensive to get married and raise a family in the UK and with the added increased risk of relationships being unhappy or breaking down altogether and the emotional and financial costs of that, I can understand why some young people are reluctant to commit to the whole family and marriage idea.

The video you linked to seemed to show some young people in Japan feeling that the costs of starting or being in a relationship - trauma of rejection and restriction of freedom - outweighs the benefits of companionship and sex and family life. Maybe their parents' generation were more emotionally robust, less discerning, didn't mind the drudgery, had fewer options, or maybe their cost of living and future prospects and expectations were such that relationships did not have the risks attached that scare off some of the younger generation today.

Hi Gabriella,

Getting married and raising a family has always been expensive,I suppose. But that did not stop people (even the poorest) from getting married and having a family.

Anyway, whatever the reason, I find the current situation in Japan (and possibly other places) rather unfortunate. 

[Nearly Sane]

Thanks ekim.  I think some scientist had pointed to this study some years  ago and said that such a situation is likely to occur in humans...though I think many disagreed at that time.  He has been proved correct I think.

I am surprised that many in Britain seem to find this situation quite acceptable. That is amazing considering the population is not very high.

I give in, what does your last sentence mean? It seems to imply that population density is something that shouldn't be considered in some competition for countries to have the most people but that seems too absurd for anyone to have said.

[Harrowby Hall]

You were right about the plurality of negatives, Sriram. I have removed one of them. Thank you.

I think, NS, that Sriram finds it difficult to refrain from having a pop at his country's former Imperial overlords. I suspect that it is inconceivable to him that there should be anyone living in England whose heart does not fill with pride when they hear of the "Empire on which the sun never sets."   As if ........

He seems to be of the opinion that the island of Great Britain is overcrowded. When last I looked, its rank was 51 in the list of world population densities.

[Nearly Sane]

You were right about the plurality of negatives, Sriram. I have removed one of them. Thank you.

I think, NS, that Sriram finds it difficult to refrain from having a pop at his country's former Imperial overlords. I suspect that it is inconceivable to him that there should be anyone living in England whose heart does not fill with pride when they hear of the "Empire on which the sun never sets."   As if ........

He seems to be of the opinion that the island of Great Britain is overcrowded. When last I looked, its rank was 51 in the list of world population densities.

My reading was he thought it wasn't crowded enough and that we need more people because somehow having a bigger population is important.

[Sriram]

You were right about the plurality of negatives, Sriram. I have removed one of them. Thank you.

I think, NS, that Sriram finds it difficult to refrain from having a pop at his country's former Imperial overlords. I suspect that it is inconceivable to him that there should be anyone living in England whose heart does not fill with pride when they hear of the "Empire on which the sun never sets."   As if ........

He seems to be of the opinion that the island of Great Britain is overcrowded. When last I looked, its rank was 51 in the list of world population densities.

I am saying the opposite HH. 

I am saying that Britain is not so over crowded that the mechanisms that ekim has mentioned should be set in motion there.  So it is surprising that people in Britain don't find the Japan experience unusual.