We are now officially a majority non religious country

[floo]

Absolutely! On one occasion, when, following receiving the Holy Gifts, I stayed too long on the women's side of the church, I was left in no doubt that I should cross to the men's side. And that was the congregation, not the priest.

FTR Our church is more liberal than the RCC as regards contraception, but abortion is a big no no.

Men and women's sides of a church, which church insists on that for heaven's sake?

[Humph Warden Bennett]

Men and women's sides of a church, which church insists on that for heaven's sake?

The Orthodox. Women & girls stand to the right of the Priest, men and boys stand to his left. The icons on one side of the church are of female saints, those on the other side are male saints.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

And FTR it was a very moving moment when Master Bennett was old enough to take my hand & stand with me on the men's side.

[floo]

The Orthodox. Women & girls stand to the right of the Priest, men and boys stand to his left. The icons on one side of the church are of female saints, those on the other side are male saints.

Blimey how crazy, the Orthodox church needs to drag itself into the 21st century too. I am willing to bet the so called 'saints' weren't so saintly in reality, like that woman Mother T.

[Shaker]

Blimey how crazy, the Orthodox church needs to drag itself into the 21st century too.

They'll have to skip over a shitload of centuries in between to do so.

[Shaker]

The Orthodox. Women & girls stand to the right of the Priest, men and boys stand to his left. The icons on one side of the church are of female saints, those on the other side are male saints.

Segregation even down to paintings. In 2017.

[Robbie]

Reponding to Floo:- Are Saints supposed to be perfect people? Humph will correct me if I'm wrong but I thought they were people who made mistakes but something about their lives overwhelmingly good in the spiritual sense made them Saints. As for saints (small s) anyone who goes to Heaven is a saint.I think.

Can't see anything wrong with having different sides for men and women. I didn't know about it before today but it doesn't imply any inequalitiy, just a different way of doing things.

[Shaker]

Can't see anything wrong with having different sides for men and women. I didn't know about it before today but it doesn't imply any inequalitiy, just a different way of doing things.

Would it wash in any other area of life today?

[Sriram]

Yes...you're probably right.   Religions have many aspects to them, mythology, legends, rituals, rules, community work, congregating in temples and churches, deities and so on.

With changing times, people could give up on many of the above and still retain basic spiritual goals and aspirations.   

For those who wonder what 'spirituality'is, I have written about it several times.

You could  check out this article.

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2016/06/06/spirituality-and-religion/

Further to the above....if we really want to find out about secular spirituality we only need to ask few questions...

1. Do you think life is not merely an accident but is meant to be?   Yes/No

2. Do you believe in a purpose to your individual live? Yes/No

4. Do you believe in life continuing after death in some form? Yes/No

4. Do you believe your life is guided by some unseen force and is not entirely in your conscious control? Yes/No

This should be enough to establish how many people accept secular spirituality without necessarily bringing in God, mythology and religious concepts.

[Robbie]

Would it wash in any other area of life today?

Dunno. Doubt it.

[Shaker]

Further to the above....if we really want to find out about secular spirituality we only need to ask few questions...

1. Do you think life is not merely an accident but is meant to be?   Yes/No

2. Do you believe in a purpose to your individual live? Yes/No

4. Do you believe in life continuing after death in some form? Yes/No

4. Do you believe your life is guided by some unseen force and is not entirely in your conscious control? Yes/No

This should be enough to establish how many people accept secular spirituality without necessarily bringing in God, mythology and religious concepts.

1. No.

2. Yes.

3. No.

4. No.

What do I win?

[Rhiannon]

Ok...

1. No.

2. Life has the meaning that I bring to it. Of not.

3. Believe no, am open to the possibility, yes.

4. Not on your nelly.

[Sriram]

Ok...

1. No.

2. Life has the meaning that I bring to it. Of not.

3. Believe no, am open to the possibility, yes.

4. Not on your nelly.

I am not suggesting that people on here should answer these questions.   

What I meant was that if such a survey is conducted we would need to ask only few such questions to determine if people have taken to secular spirituality or not  while being non religious.  It was with reference to the OP.

No complicated questions about the nature and definition of spirituality would be required.  That was my point.

[Rhiannon]

I am not suggesting that people on here should answer these questions.   

What I meant was that if such a survey is conducted we would need to ask only few such questions to determine if people have taken to secular spirituality or not  while being non religious.  It was with reference to the OP.

It's interesting to answer them though, surely, and see reactions?

If you put it out there it's not up to you what people choose to do with it.

[Sriram]

It's interesting to answer them though, surely, and see reactions?

If you put it out there it's not up to you what people choose to do with it.

Go ahead!

[floo]

Reponding to Floo:- Are Saints supposed to be perfect people? Humph will correct me if I'm wrong but I thought they were people who made mistakes but something about their lives overwhelmingly good in the spiritual sense made them Saints. As for saints (small s) anyone who goes to Heaven is a saint.I think.

Can't see anything wrong with having different sides for men and women. I didn't know about it before today but it doesn't imply any inequalitiy, just a different way of doing things.

Mother T was no sort of saint whilst alive. I once met someone who had worked with her, they thought she was cruel and had absolutely no compassion for the people she supposed to be helping.

[ProfessorDavey]

Further to the above....if we really want to find out about secular spirituality we only need to ask few questions...

1. Do you think life is not merely an accident but is meant to be?   Yes/No

2. Do you believe in a purpose to your individual live? Yes/No

4. Do you believe in life continuing after death in some form? Yes/No

4. Do you believe your life is guided by some unseen force and is not entirely in your conscious control? Yes/No

This should be enough to establish how many people accept secular spirituality without necessarily bringing in God, mythology and religious concepts.

1. No
2. Yes
3. No (except in the memory of other etc)
4. Depends what you mean - if some 'external' force then 'no', but there is a strong influence of the unconscious and subconscious which are manifestations of our own neural systems, but aren't necessarily conscious.

[Nearly Sane]

I am not suggesting that people on here should answer these questions.   

What I meant was that if such a survey is conducted we would need to ask only few such questions to determine if people have taken to secular spirituality or not  while being non religious.  It was with reference to the OP.

No complicated questions about the nature and definition of spirituality would be required.  That was my point.

Only if we get agreement that your questions and your approach are what is meant by spirituality. Others may disagree with it.


In terms of my answers.

1. Don't know, doesn't seem to be a coherent question to me.

2. a single purpose? No, many multiple purposes quite possibly, depends what you mean by purpose though because I suspect what I think of as a purpose might be different to you.

3. Too badly phrased to answer since it uses a false dichotomy of life/death


4. I don't believe that is controlled by some conscious outside force, nor do I believe it is within my conscious control.

The problem is you are using a badly defined idea based on a number of false dichotomies.

[Enki]

Further to the above....if we really want to find out about secular spirituality we only need to ask few questions...

1. Do you think life is not merely an accident but is meant to be?   Yes/No

2. Do you believe in a purpose to your individual live? Yes/No

4. Do you believe in life continuing after death in some form? Yes/No

4. Do you believe your life is guided by some unseen force and is not entirely in your conscious control? Yes/No

This should be enough to establish how many people accept secular spirituality without necessarily bringing in God, mythology and religious concepts.

There is no evidence that I that know of which suggests that life was meant to be, I consider that we all make our own purposes in our individual lives, I have no reason to think that individual lives continue after their deaths and, again, there is no evidence that unseen forces guide our lives, unless, of course, you consider that evolutionary tendencies, and our physical make-up have a large part to play in how our lives progress.

However, I insist that I am still able to use the term secular spirituality if I so wish with regards to myself, whether you agree with me or not, simply because such a term has no exactitude, can emphasise different things to different people and is in no way defined by you at all,  and certainly not by your seemingly loaded questions.

[Bramble]

However, I insist that I am still able to use the term secular spirituality if I so wish with regards to myself, whether you agree with me or not, simply because such a term has no exactitude, can emphasise different things to different people and is in no way defined by you at all,  and certainly not by your seemingly loaded questions.

That's very well put, enki, and I'd agree with all of it. Sriram's questions seem to me more religious than spiritual, although that's just my way of taking the words. None of them are questions that would naturally occur to me to ask and I still find it strange that they apparently preoccupy so many people. When I was about 14 I remember being struck by the thought that I might not actually be human and when I think about how these questions are central to so many human lives I get something approaching that feeling all over again!

[Rhiannon]

That's s very good point. Sriram I think links secular spirituality with a kind of quasi religious belief with no dogma or doctrine. In other words, a broadly theist belief that includes an afterlife.

I've said before that spirituality for me is the nurturing of the parts of us that go beyond our basic physical needs. My personal path is about connection to nature and to others, and a searching for stillness in whatever is happening in my life, along with the enrichment of creativity, mine and other people's. 

[Bramble]

Yes, his approach is very religious, I think. I've been pondering why those questions feel odd to me and I think it may be because they are so 'heady' and abstract. They seem to come from a place where mind and body have already been divorced and the body sent to sleep in the stables with the horses, leaving the 'spiritual' faculties free to elevate themselves unmolested so that they may consort with angels and suchlike.

[Rhiannon]

I can answer the questions ok but they are assuming that 'spirit' is separate from the body, aren't they?

[Bramble]

They also refer to ones 'life' as something quite abstract, almost as if it existed separate from its moments. For instance, 'Do you believe in a purpose to your individual life?' doesn't make much sense when you're eating a juicy pear or listening to a blackcap - at least it doesn't to me. In fact, all the questions seem entirely irrelevant to me.

[Rhiannon]

They also refer to ones 'life' as something quite abstract, almost as if it existed separate from its moments. For instance, 'Do you believe in a purpose to your individual life?' doesn't make much sense when you're eating a juicy pear or listening to a blackcap - at least it doesn't to me. In fact, all the questions seem entirely irrelevant to me.

Now you see those are *exactly* the ones where I find meaning. I think life has no meaning except what we choose to bring to it, and life is made meaningful to me by exactly the kinds of things you describe - smelling the honeysuckle, watching the buzzards, eating good bread. If noticing these things is my life's purpose then I'm fine with it.