What's good about Christianity?

[Rhiannon]

Sassy says about the 'good within Christ'. Setting aside the 'Christ' thing, I don't think you can get away from the fact that the Jesus in the Gospels said and did some good and compassionate things.

[Shaker]

Sassy says about the 'good within Christ'. Setting aside the 'Christ' thing, I don't think you can get away from the fact that the Jesus in the Gospels said and did some good and compassionate things.

... sometimes. But then the rest has to be accounted for.

[Owlswing]

Sassy says about the 'good within Christ'. Setting aside the 'Christ' thing, I don't think you can get away from the fact that the Jesus in the Gospels said and did some good and compassionate things.

"The Jesus of the Gospels" is one of the "matters of faith not fact" that I was referring to.

[Dicky Underpants]

"The Jesus of the Gospels" is one of the "matters of faith not fact" that I was referring to.

It may be a matter of faith to "feed the hungry, heal the sick, and clothe the naked" as Jesus is supposed to have said. However, I'd rather say that this was a matter of practical compassion. But I'll grant you that the line "inasmuch as you have done this to the least of my brethren, you have done it unto me" - is certainly a matter of faith.

[floo]

Sassy says about the 'good within Christ'. Setting aside the 'Christ' thing, I don't think you can get away from the fact that the Jesus in the Gospels said and did some good and compassionate things.

If of course anything he is supposed to have said and done is factual.

[Rhiannon]

If of course anything he is supposed to have said and done is factual.

I think that's kind of irrelevant in this context. 'Jesus' is said to have come up with some not so good stuff too. But some of the stuff that he 'said' is pretty cool by anyone's standards. And as non- Christians we don't have to take the bad as well as the good, nor try to make the contradictory messages fit. We are free to appreciate the good things that 'he said', factually or otherwise, and also appreciate the acts of people through the ages that have been inspired by them.

[floo]

I think that's kind of irrelevant in this context. 'Jesus' is said to have come up with some not so good stuff too. But some of the stuff that he 'said' is pretty cool by anyone's standards. And as non- Christians we don't have to take the bad as well as the good, nor try to make the contradictory messages fit. We are free to appreciate the good things that 'he said', factually or otherwise, and also appreciate the acts of people through the ages that have been inspired by them.

Why isn't it relevant, words could have been put into the guy's mouth by the gospel writers. Anyway I don't see how it is possible for even those who knew Jesus to have been able to quote him word for word years later after his death. I very much doubt they wrote it down when he was actually supposed to have said those things.

[Nearly Sane]

Why isn't it relevant, words could have been put into the guy's mouth by the gospel writers. Anyway I don't see how it is possible for even those who knew Jesus to have been able to quote him word for word years later after his death. I very much doubt they wrote it down when he was actually supposed to have said those things.

Because the question posed by Rhiannon isn't about whether Jesus said them but whether any of them are good.

[wigginhall]

It's the old idea that somebody said them or wrote them, it doesn't matter who.   But this is a car-crash for orthodox Christianity, I suppose.

[floo]

Because the question posed by Rhiannon isn't about whether Jesus said them but whether any of them are good.

Fair enough.

[Sassy]

This thread is about real things not flights of unproven fantasy like Jesus Christ and the God of the Christians for neither of which is there one iota of proof - hence they are MATTERS OF FAITH NOT FACT" - when are you going to get that through your skull and into your head!

What would you know about fantasy or Jesus Christ for that matter?  Glass windows and stones come to mind when some who is a pagan makes such statements. Could we not have the perfect example of someone believing in unproven fantasy when examining the beliefs you hold as a pagan. At least Jesus Christ was real.... Foot and mouth come to mind.

[Owlswing]

What would you know about fantasy or Jesus Christ for that matter?  Glass windows and stones come to mind when some who is a pagan makes such statements. Could we not have the perfect example of someone believing in unproven fantasy when examining the beliefs you hold as a pagan. At least Jesus Christ was real.... Foot and mouth come to mind.

There are none so deaf as those who refuse to listen - or, in this case, none so blind as those who will not see.

PLEASE Sassy, try, just for once, to read what is written.

I have never, ever, claimed that the Gods in which I believe are proven to be real - I have stated on more than one occasion that they are matters of faith and not of fact!

I have also stated that I was brought up in my father's faith, High Church Anglican Christian, I grew to see that fallacies that were being stated as proven fact and left Christainity for a belief sysstem that adfmitted that it was just that, faith and belief!
 
Jesus is not now and never was real as far as any reliable proof can show. He is as much a matter of belief as are my Gods.

You are just far too brainwashed to see it!

A loving God who created AIDS and Cancer and tuberculosis and diabetes and demantia? Lovinhg? I think not!

But you will never see the bad becasue of your brainwashed state.

[floo]

What would you know about fantasy or Jesus Christ for that matter?  Glass windows and stones come to mind when some who is a pagan makes such statements. Could we not have the perfect example of someone believing in unproven fantasy when examining the beliefs you hold as a pagan. At least Jesus Christ was real.... Foot and mouth come to mind.

I think you mean foot in mouth, not the disease! Jesus might have existed but you cannot prove anything attributed to Jesus was true.

[Anchorman]

      Another wee quote from Adrian Plass, musing on the encounter between Jesus and the first Irish Jew in history  (OK,  Adrian didn't write that bit, but, hey, Nick O'demus - can you blame me?) From his excellent "Bacon Sandwiches and Salvation" (For the uneducated, everybody KNOWS Jesus only spoke Jacobean English....) "What Jesus did NOT say on that famous midnight encounter... "Verily, verily I say unto thee; No man may enter the kingdom of heaven unless he is a bigoted, narrow minded git" " Dere's theology dere.....

[Nearly Sane]

Moderator Some posts have been removed from this thread as they were off topic and amounted merely to personal sniping.

[SteveH]

The Sally Army.
Christian Aid.
The nursing profession, invented by Christians.
The ending of slavery.
Democracy, which grew up in, and is still largely confined to, historically Christian countries.
People like Martin Luther King, Florence Nightingale, William Wilberforce, William and Catherine Booth, Lord Shaftsbury,and the Wesleys.

[SteveH]

Good!

[Shaker]

The Sally Army.

Highly questionable to say the very least, given their aims and attitudes, many of which I find repugnant.

The nursing profession, invented by Christians.

No nursing profession before Christianity came along?

The ending of slavery.

Slavery fully supported and endorsed by some other Christians claiming Biblical support?

Democracy, which grew up in, and is still largely confined to, historically Christian countries.

A Greek word for a Greek concept long before Christianity came on the scene.

People like Martin Luther King

Colossal hypocrite. A great man in many ways who changed the world hugely for the better, without whom the world of today would be immeasurably the poorer.

On a personal level, still a massive, colossal, humungous hypocrite. A Reverend up to the clockweights in just about every woman black or white who could trip him up and be underneath him before he hit the ground.

I'm not judging him for that - I'm exactly the same. I'm criticising him for being a hypocrite for adhering to a belief system which lays down that this is wrong.

Florence Nightingale

A believer but a highly unorthodox one.

William Wilberforce, William and Catherine Booth, Lord Shaftsbury,and the Wesleys.

I will give you those as examples of self-proclaimed Christians. Nevertheless; the point stands.

[SteveH]

Modern, representative democracy arose in Christian countries.
Martin Luther King was certainly flawed, but "collossal hypocrite" is a bit strong.
Flo Nightingale may have been unorthodox - I don't know - but she claimed ot be a Christian.
No, no nursing profession before Christianity. The first nurses were monks and nuns, and modern, secular nursing was invented by Flo Nightingale and other Christian pioneers.
What is questionable about the Sally Army?
Yes, Christians owned slaves, as did others, but it was overwhelmingly Christians who fought to rid the world of it.

[Rhiannon]

History of nursing highlights here.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_nursing

[Shaker]

Modern, representative democracy arose in Christian countries.

Correlation/causation.

Martin Luther King was certainly flawed, but "collossal hypocrite" is a bit strong.

I don't think so.

Remember: I'm not criticising or judging him for his sex life. Provided it doesn't involve minors or lack of informed consent, I don't. Adults do whatever adults want to do and that's fine by me. I'm criticising him for hypocrisy - for a public show of adherence to a certain set of moral standards which he eagerly flouted with some considerable vigour in private life.

Flo Nightingale may have been unorthodox - I don't know - but she claimed ot be a Christian.

I won't head over the hills in search of Godwin's Law, but a claim amounts to nothing.

No, no nursing profession before Christianity.

That one needs evidence.

The first nurses were monks and nuns

The first?

What is questionable about the Sally Army?

Religious fundamentalism, homophobia ...

Yes, Christians owned slaves

So doesn't that in and of itself demolish your argument?

If Christians owned slaves and justified slavery (they did) ... why?

[ProfessorDavey]

... it was overwhelmingly Christians who fought to rid the world of it.

True.

But it is just as true that it was overwhelmingly Christians who fought to keep slavery. Don't forget the USA even fought a civil war over the issue - are you somehow claiming that the Union North was Christian and the Confederate South wasn't.

The reality is that those fighting tooth and nail to abolish slavery and those fighting tooth and nail to keep slavery were overwhelmingly Christian on both sides for the obvious reason that the UK in the late 1700s and early 1800s and the USA in the mid 1800s were overwhelmingly Christian countries.

[ProfessorDavey]

Modern, representative democracy arose in Christian countries.

That is a pretty weak one, given that most Christian countries steadfastly failed to adopt democracy for perhaps 1500 or more years.

The reality is that democracy as a basic concept was well embedded in pre-Christian societies, most notably Greek and Roman and was eradicated on the arrival of Christianity.

Christian societies were very late comers to democracy, and the rise of democracy in traditionally Christian countries is almost exclusively associated with a diminution of the power of Christianity in those countries.

[Shaker]

... it is just as true that it was overwhelmingly Christians who fought to keep slavery. Don't forget the USA even fought a civil war over the issue - are you somehow claiming that the Union North was Christian and the Confederate South wasn't.

The reality is that those fighting tooth and nail to abolish slavery and those fighting tooth and nail to keep slavery were overwhelmingly Christian on both sides

http://tinyurl.com/ya6efkcz

[ProfessorDavey]

http://tinyurl.com/ya6efkcz

Indeed - the spat over slavery in the UK and USA was blue on blue so to speak - in other words Christian fighting Christian, and indeed both sides justifying their position by reference to their interpretation of Christianity.