Idealism

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

One of the hallmarks of our times is the absence of Idealism. No one has the confidence in oneself or the trust in others to determine and follow any set of ideals any more. The concept of 'Character' building seems outdated.

Spirituality, religions and certain philosophies are about ideals. They are not just about explaining things as they are. They are about how things should be, how we should live and what goals we should pursue.

I have many times written about the three stages in our lives. Childhood, Adolescence and Maturity. Here is an article about it for those who might be interested.

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2016/04/20/three-stages/

People who are mentally in the Child stage will accept authority from someone like a religious leader, holy book or even ones own parents. Such people have no problem following a lifestyle or pursuing goals that elders and others have prescribed based on their wisdom. This mindset is safe and has its advantages.

Those who are mentally in the second stage of adolescence are habitually skeptical and cynical. They are full of themselves and ready to rebel at any sign of authority. They are the 'live as you want' brigade.

In the third stage of Maturity are people who have the experience, wisdom and self discipline necessary to understand the do's and don'ts of life. Even if they don't understand life itself, they know that it should be lived in certain ways for ones own and society's benefit.

It is the second stage people who can end up messing up their lives because they neither have the maturity to understand the consequences of their lifestyle nor the willingness to obey their elders.  They no longer accept the authority of religions or their elders. They don't have the confidence and self assurance that comes of experience and wisdom  and therefore they have no ideals at all.  Everything is questioned, scoffed at and discarded.

Life without any ideals can not only mess up our own lives but also mess up our community. Ideals are goals and objectives that people fix based on certain understanding of life and  the repercussions of our actions. If we keep scoffing at them, the consequences will be dire.

In present times many people have moved beyond the child stage but not yet reached the Mature stage. This gives rise to continued uncertainty and doubt , continued skepticism and cynicism about what is right and wrong.  Nothing is right or wrong in itself. Its only about police, courts and criminal offences.  Otherwise anything is ok for them. Anyone prescribing certain lifestyle are viewed as interfering in other peoples business. 

I think in coming generations people will gain mental maturity based on a secular understanding of the subtle aspects of life and they will bring back ideals in their normal lives, giving youngsters some life goals and ideals to follow other than mundane ones. 

Just some thoughts.

Cheers.

Sriram

 

[Robbie]

Thanks for that Sririam (always find your posts at least interesting  ).  That post struck home.  My mother came from a Quaker(SofF) background and many of her ideals are ones that I espouse though she never forced any belief system on to me and my sister, she is 'typically' gentle in that regard and wanted us to grow up to be ourselves, if that's not too much of a cliche.

I have to get ready for work now but will be back later by which time there will be many other c omments!

[ekim]

A problem with idealism and any other -ism is  that there can be conflicts between them.

[Rhiannon]

I disagree with quite a bit of the OP. But there we are.

[Shaker]

I disagree with quite a bit of the OP. But there we are.

More politely expressed than what I was thinking. But there I am.

[Enki]

I disagree with quite a bit of the OP. But there we are.

Ditto. Nicely expressed, Rhi.

[Aruntraveller]

They no longer accept the authority of religions or their elders.

Which religion? Which elders?

Being an elder does not necessarily confer wisdom. Indeed I've seen more wisdom in some 5 year olds than I have seen in some 85 year olds.

This is all so vague as to be meaningless.

[floo]

People should always question what they are being told about religion by those considered in authority. No priest can provide any evidence to support the existence of god or an afterlife.

[ippy]

Hi everyone,

One of the hallmarks of our times is the absence of Idealism. No one has the confidence in oneself or the trust in others to determine and follow any set of ideals any more. The concept of 'Character' building seems outdated.

Spirituality, religions and certain philosophies are about ideals. They are not just about explaining things as they are. They are about how things should be, how we should live and what goals we should pursue.

I have many times written about the three stages in our lives. Childhood, Adolescence and Maturity. Here is an article about it for those who might be interested.

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2016/04/20/three-stages/

People who are mentally in the Child stage will accept authority from someone like a religious leader, holy book or even ones own parents. Such people have no problem following a lifestyle or pursuing goals that elders and others have prescribed based on their wisdom. This mindset is safe and has its advantages.

Those who are mentally in the second stage of adolescence are habitually skeptical and cynical. They are full of themselves and ready to rebel at any sign of authority. They are the 'live as you want' brigade.

In the third stage of Maturity are people who have the experience, wisdom and self discipline necessary to understand the do's and don'ts of life. Even if they don't understand life itself, they know that it should be lived in certain ways for ones own and society's benefit.

It is the second stage people who can end up messing up their lives because they neither have the maturity to understand the consequences of their lifestyle nor the willingness to obey their elders.  They no longer accept the authority of religions or their elders. They don't have the confidence and self assurance that comes of experience and wisdom  and therefore they have no ideals at all.  Everything is questioned, scoffed at and discarded.

Life without any ideals can not only mess up our own lives but also mess up our community. Ideals are goals and objectives that people fix based on certain understanding of life and  the repercussions of our actions. If we keep scoffing at them, the consequences will be dire.

In present times many people have moved beyond the child stage but not yet reached the Mature stage. This gives rise to continued uncertainty and doubt , continued skepticism and cynicism about what is right and wrong.  Nothing is right or wrong in itself. Its only about police, courts and criminal offences.  Otherwise anything is ok for them. Anyone prescribing certain lifestyle are viewed as interfering in other peoples business. 

I think in coming generations people will gain mental maturity based on a secular understanding of the subtle aspects of life and they will bring back ideals in their normal lives, giving youngsters some life goals and ideals to follow other than mundane ones. 

Just some thoughts.

Cheers.

Sriram

Just a small point Sriram in psychology most of its workings are figured out on averages, it's not an exact science, bearing that in mind how do you account for the tendency of the youngest children in a family, any family, to be more rebellious for most of their lives than their siblings?

Just thought you might find that interesting.

ippy   

[Robbie]

People should always question what they are being told about religion by those considered in authority. No priest can provide any evidence to support the existence of god or an afterlife.

It wasn't just about religion floo, philosophies were mentioned.
We're all aware of the ideals of older people when we're young - some good, some bad. 
We sift through them, rejecting, accepting, adapting, eventually it is hoped we form our own opinions & have ideals of our own.

The article Sririam quotes suggests there is an absence of ideals in today's world.

[Shaker]

The article Sririam quotes suggests there is an absence of ideals in today's world.

That really makes it sound like the impotent anger and mistrust of the young by the old (some of them) going back to the year dot - isn't there a passage from an ancient Greek text (can't remember which one) complaining about the youth of today and how noisy and rude and disrespectful they are? Plus ça change.

In any case: I thought a few weeks ago we were being fed the line that Labour's relative success was due to Corbyn buttering up the idealistic youth vote?

[floo]

It wasn't just about religion floo, philosophies were mentioned.
We're all aware of the ideals of older people when we're young - some good, some bad. 
We sift through them, rejecting, accepting, adapting, eventually it is hoped we form our own opinions & have ideals of our own.

The article Sririam quotes suggests there is an absence of ideals in today's world.

I know what he was suggesting.

[Rhiannon]

That really makes it sound like the impotent anger and mistrust of the young by the old (some of them) going back to the year dot - isn't there a passage from an ancient Greek text (can't remember which one) complaining about the youth of today and how noisy and rude and disrespectful they are? Plus ça change.

My kids' generation have incredibly high ideals. Isn't idealism the preserve of the young, and cynicism something that comes with age? In part, possibly, as a way of making peace with death.

[Shaker]

My kids' generation have incredibly high ideals. Isn't idealism the preserve of the young, and cynicism something that comes with age? In part, possibly, as a way of making peace with death.

It's often the case - though I don't think it's inevitable and that like a riptide it's possible, though difficult, to fight against it.

The remedy AFAICS is to keep enquring, stay interested in the world, keep thinking things through, constantly.

A tall order for those who never started, obviously.

[floo]

My kids' generation have incredibly high ideals. Isn't idealism the preserve of the young, and cynicism something that comes with age? In part, possibly, as a way of making peace with death.

I can't remember if I had any ideals of my own as such when a young person. I have always done my own thing, much to the annoyance of my late mother, in particular!

[Shaker]

"One of the strange and rather attractive features of modern life is how highly kindness and generosity are valued [...] Different generations invent or reinvent their own cardinal sins. In the generation now aged sixteen to twenty-five, I should say (to judge from my acquaintances in this age group) that the cardinal sins were racism and cruelty to animals. One can laugh at the earnestness which this sometimes produces, but on the whole it makes life pleasanter rather than the reverse, particularly if you happen to be either a fox or a human being of Afro-Caribbean descent. The impulses to 'feed the world', cherish its wildlife, to make life more bearable for ethnic or other 'minorities' are manifest and palpable among enormous numbers of young people today." - A. N. Wilson, 1991.

[Robbie]

That really makes it sound like the impotent anger and mistrust of the young by the old (some of them) going back to the year dot - isn't there a passage from an ancient Greek text (can't remember which one) complaining about the youth of today and how noisy and rude and disrespectful they are? Plus ça change.

In any case: I thought a few weeks ago we were being fed the line that Labour's relative success was due to Corbyn buttering up the idealistic youth vote?

Yes, good to see too imo but then I would say that being as I share some of Corbyn's ideals .

There's also the mistrust of the young by some of the old unfortunately.

My kids' generation have incredibly high ideals. Isn't idealism the preserve of the young, and cynicism something that comes with age? In part, possibly, as a way of making peace with death.

I'd never thought of cynicism being a way of making peace with the inevitable. You may be right about that in some cases, an 'old' person today said something to me that would tie in with your theory. I didn't have the time to discuss it with her but it bothered me, she seemed so bitter and only focussed on negatives.

[Rhiannon]

"One of the strange and rather attractive features of modern life is how highly kindness and generosity are valued [...] Different generations invent or reinvent their own cardinal sins. In the generation now aged sixteen to twenty-five, I should say (to judge from my acquaintances in this age group) that the cardinal sins were racism and cruelty to animals. One can laugh at the earnestness which this sometimes produces, but on the whole it makes life pleasanter rather than the reverse, particularly if you happen to be either a fox or a human being of Afro-Caribbean descent. The impulses to 'feed the world', cherish its wildlife, to make life more bearable for ethnic or other 'minorities' are manifest and palpable among enormous numbers of young people today." - A. N. Wilson, 1991.

For the generation that my kids are growing up in, it's sexism and homophobia/transphobia.

[Shaker]

For the generation that my kids are growing up in, it's sexism and homophobia/transphobia.

As well as rather than instead of, I'm sure.

[Rhiannon]

As well as rather than instead of, I'm sure.

Well, obvs.

They do hate it when people say 'obvs' though. Especially the over forties. I think this is ageist.

[Shaker]

Whatevs.

[Sriram]

Just a small point Sriram in psychology most of its workings are figured out on averages, it's not an exact science, bearing that in mind how do you account for the tendency of the youngest children in a family, any family, to be more rebellious for most of their lives than their siblings?

Just thought you might find that interesting.

ippy   

Yes..but I am not talking about individual behavior or specific issues.  Even two year old's can throw tantrums and even 14 year old's may obey and conform and even mature people could be skeptical.  That depends on the issue on hand.

What I am talking about is how societies and communities in general behave towards different issues. That depends to a large extent on what stage of mental development the majority of the individuals are in that group and the subject matter on hand.  That depends on the culture, social restrictions and so on.

For example, many Muslims would be grouped under 'child' stage as far as religion is concerned because they will obey and idolize without question. But as regards business matters they might be mature.  Britishers might be grouped under 'Adolescence' as far as religion and authority is concerned because they are skeptical as a rule.

[Shaker]

 

[Aruntraveller]

For example, many Muslims would be grouped under 'child' stage as far as religion is concerned because they will obey and idolize without question.

So can you clarify. Do you think people should accept the authority of their elders and religion or not?

If yes, then I don't see why you are criticizing religious believers?  If no, why are you calling those that question said beliefs as adolescents?

This is all a confused mess.

[floo]

Yes..but I am not talking about individual behavior or specific issues.  Even two year old's can throw tantrums and even 14 year old's may obey and conform and even mature people could be skeptical.  That depends on the issue on hand.

What I am talking about is how societies and communities in general behave towards different issues. That depends to a large extent on what stage of mental development the majority of the individuals are in that group and the subject matter on hand.  That depends on the culture, social restrictions and so on.

For example, many Muslims would be grouped under 'child' stage as far as religion is concerned because they will obey and idolize without question. But as regards business matters they might be mature.  Britishers might be grouped under 'Adolescence' as far as religion and authority is concerned because they are skeptical as a rule.

And how do you regard your religion?