Idealism

[ippy]

Yes..but I am not talking about individual behavior or specific issues.  Even two year old's can throw tantrums and even 14 year old's may obey and conform and even mature people could be skeptical.  That depends on the issue on hand.

What I am talking about is how societies and communities in general behave towards different issues. That depends to a large extent on what stage of mental development the majority of the individuals are in that group and the subject matter on hand.  That depends on the culture, social restrictions and so on.

For example, many Muslims would be grouped under 'child' stage as far as religion is concerned because they will obey and idolize without question. But as regards business matters they might be mature.  Britishers might be grouped under 'Adolescence' as far as religion and authority is concerned because they are skeptical as a rule.

 'Britishers might be grouped under 'Adolescence' as far as religion and authority is concerned because they are skeptical as a rule'.

Ah ha no, realistic.

'Muslims would be grouped under 'child' stage as far as religion is concerned'.

No primitive in just the same way as any other religious belief.

'Yes..but I am not talking about individual behavior or specific issues.  Even two year old's can throw tantrums and even 14 year old's may obey and conform and even mature people could be skeptical.  That depends on the issue on hand'.

A country with a population the size of India's, say one sceptic per every third family, now that's a lot of sceptics and if you re read my post I did concede I was making a small point worth noting.

Why do you take such a superior tone when expressing religious matters, doesn't your superstition based belief require humility of its exponents?   

]ppy

[Rhiannon]

I'd say someone who pigeon holes people according to their beliefs or nationality is still in the 'child' stage.

[Sriram]

My goodness! You people think this is a fight between religions or between the religious and non religious?!!  LOL! 

Ippy...maybe I made a mistake in replying to you.  Forgive me!   

[floo]

My goodness! You people think this is a fight between religions or between the religious and non religious?!!  LOL! 

Ippy...maybe I made a mistake in replying to you.  Forgive me!   

So how do you regard it, because your posts aren't clear on the topic?

[ekim]

So can you clarify. Do you think people should accept the authority of their elders and religion or not?

If yes, then I don't see why you are criticizing religious believers?  If no, why are you calling those that question said beliefs as adolescents?

This is all a confused mess.

It sounds a bit like the Transactional Analysis ego states of Parent, Adult, Child.  If you are interested, there is an article here..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transactional_analysis

[Rhiannon]

It sounds a bit like the Transactional Analysis ego states of Parent, Adult, Child.  If you are interested, there is an article here..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transactional_analysis

Yes, except there's child/adolescent/elder and Sriram seems to think that we go through the stages based on spirituality and age, whereas in TA even the young can be in an Adult stage and anyone rubber band back into Child (we've all seen people in their eighties do it) or take on the Parent role in response to it.

I've also come across this idea of going through these 'stages' in modern shamanism. The problem there is that it becomes an excuse for not moving forward - 'I can't do that until I've reached this' - without taking into account that 'that' may be what is necessary to grow in the first place.

[ProfessorDavey]

One of the hallmarks of our times is the absence of Idealism.

Really!?! Evidence please.

From where I am standing idealism is alive and well. Actually we are seeing perhaps the greatest battles of idealism in society both nationally and internationally that there have been in decades.

No one has the confidence in oneself

I see plenty of self confidence in our young people

or the trust in others to determine and follow any set of ideals any more. The concept of 'Character' building seems outdated.

But that isn't idealism, that is acceptance and following of authority. Idealism is surely where you are true to your own ideals, regardless of the pressure from others to conform to orthodox views.

I have many times written about the three stages in our lives. Childhood, Adolescence and Maturity. Here is an article about it for those who might be interested.

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2016/04/20/three-stages/

People who are mentally in the Child stage will accept authority from someone like a religious leader, holy book or even ones own parents. Such people have no problem following a lifestyle or pursuing goals that elders and others have prescribed based on their wisdom. This mindset is safe and has its advantages.

Those who are mentally in the second stage of adolescence are habitually skeptical and cynical. They are full of themselves and ready to rebel at any sign of authority. They are the 'live as you want' brigade.

In the third stage of Maturity are people who have the experience, wisdom and self discipline necessary to understand the do's and don'ts of life. Even if they don't understand life itself, they know that it should be lived in certain ways for ones own and society's benefit.

It is the second stage people who can end up messing up their lives because they neither have the maturity to understand the consequences of their lifestyle nor the willingness to obey their elders.  They no longer accept the authority of religions or their elders. They don't have the confidence and self assurance that comes of experience and wisdom  and therefore they have no ideals at all.  Everything is questioned, scoffed at and discarded.

Life without any ideals can not only mess up our own lives but also mess up our community. Ideals are goals and objectives that people fix based on certain understanding of life and  the repercussions of our actions. If we keep scoffing at them, the consequences will be dire.

In present times many people have moved beyond the child stage but not yet reached the Mature stage. This gives rise to continued uncertainty and doubt , continued skepticism and cynicism about what is right and wrong.  Nothing is right or wrong in itself. Its only about police, courts and criminal offences.  Otherwise anything is ok for them. Anyone prescribing certain lifestyle are viewed as interfering in other peoples business. 

I think in coming generations people will gain mental maturity based on a secular understanding of the subtle aspects of life and they will bring back ideals in their normal lives, giving youngsters some life goals and ideals to follow other than mundane ones. 

Just some thoughts.

Cheers.

Sriram

A lot of waffle there, but fundamentally I don't disagree with the basic concept of the three stages in the very broadest terms.

However surely idealism is inextricably linked to the second stage. Idealism is (and always has been) driven by those old enough and with enough confidence to challenge the orthodox views of those older than themselves and not simply to conform to the status quo. But also not to have developed to a stage where they are resistant to change.

So you seem to argue to a point that is bizarre - effectively that the real idealists (those in the second stage) aren't idealists and actual idealists are those simply accepting of the orthodox view as they are too old to change or too young to challenge.

And you cannot say that others should give 'youngsters some life goals and ideals to follow' and think that is idealism - it isn't - it is only idealism if thew youngsters themselves independently develop their life goals and ideals.

[Aruntraveller]

Sririam your post is confusing. I, like I suspect others are trying to make sense of it.

And also I wonder just what you mean by this:

Anyone prescribing certain lifestyle are viewed as interfering in other peoples business. 

[ippy]

I'd say someone who pigeon holes people according to their beliefs or nationality is still in the 'child' stage.

Yes I'm with you on that Rhi.

ippy

[ippy]

My goodness! You people think this is a fight between religions or between the religious and non religious?!!  LOL! 

Ippy...maybe I made a mistake in replying to you.  Forgive me!   

'a fight between religions or between the religious and non religious?!!  LOL!  '.

Not really the only thing that's worth a fight for is a secular way of life for all and one thing in particular that I find to be very distasteful, putting it mildly, is teaching unsupported/unsupportable nonsense to very young and vulnerable children.   

Maybe you are unable to find anything logical or rational to support your religious ideas and your only get out is to arrogantly dismiss words that don't fit in with your preconceived ideas.

It's your religious ideas I don't agree with and that would remain the same for me wherever you came from, whoever you are or whatever paint job you have, you may well be a reasonable likeable bloke I don't know, I have every respect for you as an individual but as I said I don't go much on your religious ideas that's all.

ippy

[Sriram]

It sounds a bit like the Transactional Analysis ego states of Parent, Adult, Child.  If you are interested, there is an article here..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transactional_analysis

ekim,

This cannot be directly compared to TA.  TA is about interpersonal behavior and interactions, not about basic personality traits.  A person could interact as Parent to Child with a person under certain circumstances and interact as child to child with the same person a little later...and maybe as adult to adult a little later.

What I am referring to in my OP is about basic stages of development in all humans and how culture and environment  affect our mental development and behavior and how the community as a whole can often reflect these personality traits.

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

Let me clarify.

First of all...this thread has nothing to do with religions or with spirituality.   

I am here talking about three normal stages of development that all humans go through...childhood, adolescence and maturity. Each of these has certain traits as I have already explained.  Broadly speaking childhood is about adulation, imitation and acceptance of authority. Adolescence is about rebellion, self importance and skepticism.  Maturity is about both the others in balance with thought and emotional stability.  This is a normal and well known categorization of human development.  Nothing new about it!

Unfortunately, while physical development happens at broadly fixed ages, the mind does not  necessarily catch up in all cases because it depends largely on the family, culture and social environment.   In societies where people are very strict and rigid (such as in Muslim communities for example) the stage of adolescence does not give rise to the usual rebellion and doubt and skepticism.  It gets curtailed. Therefore the child stage continues (mentally) well beyond physical childhood. In fact many people retain the child mind even in advanced age with the same adulation, imitation and blind acceptance of authority.  This is possible not merely with regard to religious matters but also often in political and other matters.  This happens in many tradition bound and strict communities (not just muslims).

As regards adolescence, in societies where there is greater liberty and freedom, children tend to attain mental adolescence earlier than usual. They become vocal, irreverent and skeptical very early.  If however these children are not exposed to a variety of cultures and ideas as they grow, they tend to retain the same adolescent ideas and perspectives well into adulthood, often into very advanced age also. 

This is all that I am saying in my OP....and in my article that I have linked. 

As regards ideals...children often learn their ideals from parents or religious people or other people in authority. During adolescence they tend to disregard these same ideals and follow their own instincts or desires or  fears or whatever they may consider as important at that time. Long term ideals and life goals are not given much importance. As I have said above, in societies where people have great liberty and freedom and where they also have restricted exposure to other cultures  and ideas, they will tend to hold on to such perspectives well into advanced age.

People who are exposed to varied ideas and alternative possibilities will however tend to mature and grow out of these adolescent ideas much faster and reach an emotionally and intellectually balanced state of mind.

I hope I have clarified. 

Cheers.

Sriram 

[ProfessorDavey]

As regards ideals...children often learn their ideals from parents or religious people or other people in authority.

Ideals aren't things you 'learn' from others - they are things that you develop for yourself.

[Nearly Sane]

Ideals aren't things you 'learn' from others - they are things that you develop for yourself.

Seems an odd and as ever false dichotomy. Are you really saying you developed your ideals yourself?

[ProfessorDavey]

Seems an odd and as ever false dichotomy. Are you really saying you developed your ideals yourself?

You develop them according to your own personal experiences, which would of course include influence of others - but that is entirely different from 'learning' them which was the implication of Siriam's post.

[Nearly Sane]

You develop them according to your own personal experiences, which would of course include influence of others - but that is entirely different from 'learning' them which was the implication of Siriam's post.

So your own experience and the influence of others, where is this out of line with Sriram's point?

[ProfessorDavey]

So your own experience and the influence of others, where is this out of line with Sriram's point?

Because Siriam said that 'children often learn their ideals from parents or religious people or other people in authority', that is a world away from developing ideals based on your individual experiences. In the former case you passively accept the ideals from others as you 'learn' them. In the latter ideals are personal and intrinsic and develop as part of your active and ongoing development.

To say you learn your ideals from others is a bit like claiming that you learn what food you like from others.

[Sriram]

Because Siriam said that 'children often learn their ideals from parents or religious people or other people in authority', that is a world away from developing ideals based on your individual experiences. In the former case you passively accept the ideals from others as you 'learn' them. In the latter ideals are personal and intrinsic and develop as part of your active and ongoing development.

To say you learn your ideals from others is a bit like claiming that you learn what food you like from others.

You fixed your ideals at the age of 6-7-8 through your own experiences? Not bad!

I don't remember much about these matters, but I probably got my ideals of truthfulness, respect for elders, vegetarianism, patriotism, family values, religious ideals etc. from my parents....partly through their teaching and largely through observing their behavior.

Anyway...G'night!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Because Siriam said that 'children often learn their ideals from parents or religious people or other people in authority', that is a world away from developing ideals based on your individual experiences. In the former case you passively accept the ideals from others as you 'learn' them. In the latter ideals are personal and intrinsic and develop as part of your active and ongoing development.

To say you learn your ideals from others is a bit like claiming that you learn what food you like from others.

Another post extolling the virtues of individual experience on a forum which frequently disparages individual experience?

[ProfessorDavey]

You fixed your ideals at the age of 6-7-8 through your own experiences? Not bad!

I don't remember much about these matters, but I probably got my ideals of truthfulness, respect for elders, vegetarianism, patriotism, family values, religious ideals etc. from my parents....partly through their teaching and largely through observing their behavior.

Anyway...G'night!

Who said anything about ideals being fixed at 6, or 7 or 8.

Quite the reverse, our ideals develop and evolve as get older and gain greater unique experience. Sure there may be a starting point that is acquired from parents and other influential people in our lives as children, but this is in effect the 'canvas' on which our personal ideals are 'painted' so to speak.

It may be that your ideals are similar to your parents (that doesn't mean they are learned) but that isn't the case for many, many people - for example think about all those vegetarians who were not brought up as vegetarians.

In my own personal case may of my ideals are very different to those of my parents - both politically and also in a broader cultural context. My parents were both big 'C' and small 'c' conservatives, rather conformist in their thinking. My ideals are very different - that doesn't mean I didn't love my parents, but I am not them and they are not me. Our ideals are individual shaped by our unique experiences.

My brother is a passionate environmentalist (almost evangelical about it through his 20s) where did that idealism come from, certainly not from our parents.

[Rhiannon]

I know what you mean, PD. I love my parents to bits but in many ways I've learned how not to be from them, if that makes sense. I've consciously parented in a very different way, have very different ideas on what constitutes 'shocking' behaviour, different ideas on relationships, faith, politics, war, the environment... a lot of their generations' ideas really weren't healthy.

[ProfessorDavey]

I know what you mean, PD. I live my parents to bits but in many ways I've learned how not to be from them, if that makes sense. I've consciously patented in a very different way, have very different ideas on what constitutes 'shocking' behaviour, different ideas on relationships, faith, politics, war, the environment... a lot of their generations' ideas really weren't healthy.

I think sometimes we learn more about idealism from our children than we did from our parents (who knows maybe they did too).

[ProfessorDavey]

Another post extolling the virtues of individual experience on a forum which frequently disparages individual experience?

I don't think the 'forum' disparages anything. Individual posters may do, or they may not do.

For the record I don't believe I disparage individual experience where (in the point I was making) it influences individual, (i.e. subjective) value judgements.

Where I think we may disagree is on the argument that an individual subjective (real for me) experience is used as an argument for an generalised and objective (real for everyone) supposition.

[Rhiannon]

I think sometimes we learn more about idealism from our children than we did from our parents (who knows maybe they did too).

Apologising for my typos. Autocorrect is not my friend.

[Shaker]

I know what you mean, PD. I love my parents to bits but in many ways I've learned how not to be from them, if that makes sense. I've consciously parented in a very different way, have very different ideas on what constitutes 'shocking' behaviour, different ideas on relationships, faith, politics, war, the environment... a lot of their generations' ideas really weren't healthy.

If we were products or only products of our background - meaning parents; meaning upbringing - then I, at my venerable age - a point in life where my beard is as much white as it is black - would still be mired in the entirely casual, entirely automatic and reflexive, entirely thoughtless, wholly non-malicious racism of my raising.

No, not racism, as there was no element of malice, spite or hatred in it; not even xenophobia neither; more like neophobia - where the new, the strange, the unfamiliar, the not-encountered-before was automatically suspect and something to be wary of, from Chinese food (I would try it but I might not like it) to people with dark brown skin who might wear unfamiliar clothing and who may well cook food with unfamilar smells wafting out of the kitchen window. Such is an upbringing in an extremely insular family in an extremely insular village/rural community in the blank bit of the middle of nowhere where almost everybody is white and everybody is assumed to be straight and everybody is employed and only a select few, slightly different people know what a chicken jalfrezi is and whether you're supposed to eat it, unblock drains with it or rub it on your chest if you have a cold.

I don't mean to sound harsh: the old saying about taking the boy out of the country though not vicky versa applies. A large part of me is still in it and I've never wanted it any other way, since at least some of the values and ideals it gave are with me - sometimes a little uneasily - to this day; good manners; respect for all, especially elders; hard work; thrift/living within your means - and I think those good things, however qualified.

On the other kettle of fish I know that a greater proportion of what I think of as my ideals have come from outside - breadth of mind, broadness of outlook, not merely passive tolerance of but active embrace of difference; these are not really things I grew up with but things I have developed, on the basis that I think I was gifted by nature - and I do think it was a gift of random chance - with the desire to know stuff, to have wider horizons.