Has gender neutrality done for Feminism

[Shaker]

Gender and sex are not the same thing.

"gender" is not the same as "sex"

Are you actually reading this thread at all?

[Rhiannon]

Rhiannon, in the thread on male genital mutilation, where the subject is about boys and penises, there are a number of instances where the natural and obvious "he" or "his" have been replaced by "they" or "their". I wrote, earlier where the context is solely and clearly male or female.

And "gender" is not the same as "sex" - sex is a binary condition, male or female, gender is a more complex and varied condition involving a continuum with masculine and feminine as its end points.

I'm not really trying to have a go at you, Rhi, it's just that I like language which is precise. (I only wish that I could always achieve my own standards  )

I didn't think for a minute you were having g a go st me - not that it would bother me if I thought that you were. I've thought about this and I think it's an example of language evolving again. I don't know about others but I find using 'he' or 'she' difficult in reference to someone that I don't know and find 'they' less personal. Nothing to do with attempting to be politically correct.

As an aside I generally like reasonably good language too, but when posting on my phone I'm also often multitasking and I let things slide. I have bigger things to sweat over.

[ad_orientem]

It's all bollocks, innit. I'll continue to use he and she because without context it's impossible to know if you're refering to a man or a woman. Sorry to all those who want to make boys into girls and girls into boys but to most knowing the difference is important.

[Rhiannon]

I'm impressed by your understanding and compassion as always, ad-o.

[Shaker]

I'm impressed by your understanding and compassion as always, ad-o.

Understanding and compassion from ad_o would be highly unorthodox.

[ProfessorDavey]

Hi everyone,

No more 'Ladies and Gentlemen'! I understand the London Tube is adopting  gender neutral announcements in future..

Seriously?!  Is this part of the PC ideal?   

Any views?

Cheers.

Sriram

Thinking about announcements I hear on my train journey (which includes a station with the Tube) I think they have been 'gender neutral' for some while - simply because the announcements aren't phrased in a manner that would need the use of 'Ladies and Gentlemen' etc.

Typically announcements are phrased as follows:

'Passengers on platform 4 awaiting the 8:45 for XXX'

Usually completed by 'we regret to announce this train has been cancelled' - or 'there is a platform alteration' - usually announced at 8:44!!

[ad_orientem]

I'm impressed by your understanding and compassion as always, ad-o.

To normal people being able to differentiate between male and female is important.

[Shaker]

To normal people being able to differentiate between male and female is important.

What about those people whose psychological gender - how they feel; their image of themselves - is at variance with biological sex?

Go on, tell us that you've got a handle on normal. It's good to laugh.

Moreover, why is it so important? Is it so you know which one to treat as the weaker vessel?

[wigginhall]

Just echoing Prof. D., it's a long time since I heard 'ladies and gentlemen' on London transport of any type.   It sounds odd to hear that it's being phased out, as it hasn't been used for yonks.   It would just sound old-fashioned today.   

[floo]

It's all bollocks, innit. I'll continue to use he and she because without context it's impossible to know if you're refering to a man or a woman. Sorry to all those who want to make boys into girls and girls into boys but to most knowing the difference is important.

Why?

[ProfessorDavey]

To normal people being able to differentiate between male and female is important.

What exactly do you mean by 'normal people' AO?

[Shaker]

People with what he thinks of as orthodox opinions, perchance.

[ProfessorDavey]

People with what he thinks of as orthodox opinions, perchance.

In other words 'normal people' in his world are people who think like him. Hmm.

[jeremyp]

Are you actually reading this thread at all?

Are you? If you were paying any attention to the thread you would note that my post was in response to the post above the one where HH says the same thing as me. Perhaps then you'd have realised I was reading from the top and replied to the first post without being aware of the second one. Then maybe you wouldn't have been quite so snarky.

[Shaker]

In other words 'normal people' in his world are people who think like him. Hmm.

People who think like him this year, if you don't mind ever so.

Back on track - consider first names. I hold it to be uncontroversial and a matter of basic common courtesy to address people by their given name in the form in which we may reasonably know they prefer. So - for instance - Richards may wish to be addressed as Richard and not Rich, Richie, Dick, Dickie or any variant thereof. (Richard Burton being an example here). Davids may well be entirely happy with Dave (or Davey), but may not. It's always best to presume the full given name since you can change it later if the information becomes available.

I don't see why it should be any different with gender. To me it's a common courtesy to interact with somebody on the basis of the gender with which they identify and to address them accordingly. To me it's simple everyday politeness, though I realise and recognise that the mileage of others may vary on such matters.