A conversation piece?

[Nearly Sane]

While I think he's a Viscunt of the first order, not sure I agree with the sentence.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40599992

[floo]

I think it is pathetic that he was only sent down for 12 weeks! If he wasn't a Viscount, but Joe public, would he have got a lot longer? 

[Nearly Sane]

I worry that we are too inclined to censor idiots. I await Stephen Fry rushing to the Viscunt's aid.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitter_Joke_Trial

[Shaker]

I don't think Stephen Fry would defend racism, would he?

[Nearly Sane]

I don't think Stephen Fry would defend racism, would he?

Surely it's a point about censorship? Agreeing with someone isn't the important thing.

[Shaker]

Surely it's a point about censorship? Agreeing with someone isn't the important thing.

The point then becomes, do we allow people to voice racist opinions freely, or do we censor/censure them.

[Nearly Sane]

I think we need to be clear here that racism is allowed and will continue to be so. The issue in the case is actually incitement to violence. I used the twitter joke case as it is comparable for that. Now I think here there is a question about it being incitement to violence against an individual and that could be seen as note 'real' rather than just a joke. I struggle though with the idea that such comments are liable for prosecution. Should we have stopped Shakespeare writing 'First, let's kill all the lawyers'? How about the drunks in the shite table in the shite pub? It's the very fact that I find the comments heinous and disgusting that makes me think they should be allowed. Je suis Charlie

[Owlswing]

I think we need to be clear here that racism is allowed and will continue to be so. The issue in the case is actually incitement to violence. I used the twitter joke case as it is comparable for that. Now I think here there is a question about it being incitement to violence against an individual and that could be seen as note 'real' rather than just a joke. I struggle though with the idea that such comments are liable for prosecution. Should we have stopped Shakespeare writing 'First, let's kill all the lawyers'? How about the drunks in the shite table in the shite pub? It's the very fact that I find the comments heinous and disgusting that makes me think they should be allowed. Je suis Charlie

I find the difference to be that in the first instance it was a case of one person stating an intention to commit a "terrorist" act if certain circumstances continued.

The Visc*nt, sorry, Viscount, offered money if someone else to procure the commission violence, murder even, on his behalf - the racism thus, I would think, becomes a minor part of the sentencing criteria.

In fact I would wonder what would have happened if the 'murder contract' target had been white, or male, or pro-Brexit, or LGBT.

[Rhiannon]

Take racism out of it and it is a threat to kill. I'm disappointed with the sentence.

[Nearly Sane]

Is it a threat to kill though? Again as with the twitter joke, I am not sure it is. Just because you say 'Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest?' doesn't mean you mean it.

[Rhiannon]

In the world of social media can you really be sure no-one will take you up on it? Surely its a form of incitement? How different is it from the Islamic fundamentalists who stoke hate without ever getting blood on their hands?

[Nearly Sane]

You can't be sure no one will take you up on it, but surely you cannot be responsible for every idiot that might?

[Rhiannon]

You can't be sure no one will take you up on it, but surely you cannot be responsible for every idiot that might?

He's not been found responsible for the actions of others, but his own.

[Nearly Sane]

He's not been found responsible for the actions of others, but his own.

But you were arguing that it was what others might do that was significant. What is the difference here between the Twitter joke and this?

[Rhiannon]

But you were arguing that it was what others might do that was significant. What is the difference here between the Twitter joke and this?

His actions may or may not cause someone to kill. Because it happens that this time they didn't you think that's ok?

[Owlswing]

Take racism out of it and it is a threat to kill. I'm disappointed with the sentence.

You have my wholehearted agreement!

If for no other reason that there will always be at least one bloody fool out there who will commit the murder first and then demand the payment.

[Owlswing]

Is it a threat to kill though? Again as with the twitter joke, I am not sure it is. Just because you say 'Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest?' doesn't mean you mean it.

In the case quoted whether the speaker 'meant it' or not the murder was committed.

[Nearly Sane]

In the case quoted whether the speaker 'meant it' or not the murder was committed.

But not in this case.

[Owlswing]

But you were arguing that it was what others might do that was significant. What is the difference here between the Twitter joke and this?

YES YES YES a thousand times YES! He put the idea of murdering that woman out there where there are people that even a mentally retarded member of the aristocracy must have known might take him up on it!

[Owlswing]

 But not in this case.

You made the comparison, not me.

[Rhiannon]

But not in this case.

Then it is threats to kill and not murder.

The difference with the Twitter joke is that nobody is going to blow up an airport because some bloke on there makes a throwaway comment because his flight isn't happening. Gina Miller is standing up against Brexiters and the most voluble and spiteful of them include members of Britain First, and there is already a precedent for a supporter of them murdering a woman in the public eye whose ideals they disagreed with.

[Nearly Sane]

Is it threats to kill? How does that work? Surely a threat to kill needs a threat to kill?

[Owlswing]

Is it threats to kill? How does that work? Surely a threat to kill needs a threat to kill?

I will pay someone £5000 to kill this woman - sounds like a threat to me!

[floo]

I will pay someone £5000 to kill this woman - sounds like a threat to me!

Some would gladly kill for that amount of dosh!

[Owlswing]

Some would gladly kill for that amount of dosh!

Recent history has shoiwn that some will murder for far, far, less.