Author Topic: What is God?  (Read 21008 times)

Sriram

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2017, 03:05:07 PM »
My point is that if a god exists why aren't be all aware of its existence in a way which can't be denied by anyone? For instance, we can all see the sun, moon and stars, and there is plenty of verifiable evidence they aren't an illusion. So if god is there, but making its existence a matter of faith, it is treating humankind very unfairly, especially if there are dire consequences for unbelief, as some folk believe to be the case.

If you see the 'Stress' thread you will realize that non belief in God can itself be hell for many people. Belief and faith is important to manage stress and find peace.

Why the real God does not reveal himself is because the real God is not outside. He is hidden inside you and is waiting to be revealed. The process of revealing the God within is unfortunately a very arduous and time consuming journey.....but ultimately worth it. 

Shaker

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2017, 03:07:00 PM »
If you see the 'Stress' thread you will realize that non belief in God can itself be hell for many people.

Who on the aforementioned thread said that? Because I've just read it again and can't see anybody saying that. So why do you think somebody did? Where did this tosh come from?
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 03:09:10 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

torridon

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2017, 03:08:44 PM »
If you see the 'Stress' thread you will realize that non belief in God can itself be hell for many people. Belief and faith is important to manage stress and find peace.

Why the real God does not reveal himself is because the real God is not outside. He is hidden inside you and is waiting to be revealed. The process of revealing the God within is unfortunately a very arduous and time consuming journey.....but ultimately worth it.

Maybe the suggestion to search and change and grow and seek itself puts stress on us.  Maybe we can just learn to be happy as we are.

Sriram

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2017, 03:17:16 PM »
Maybe the suggestion to search and change and grow and seek itself puts stress on us.  Maybe we can just learn to be happy as we are.


That depends on the person, as I keep saying.   Learning to be happy as we are is the goal but our needs and desires will not allow us. To reach the level of mental and emotional maturity to be happy as we are,  requires for us to journey around quite a bit.

wigginhall

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2017, 03:30:29 PM »
I don't agree with that.  Some people will travel around a lot intellectually and emotionally and then find peace, but some people find it already.   My dad was a contented atheist, who had never really explored spiritual or religious ideas much.   Why would he?   
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Sriram

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2017, 03:36:13 PM »
I don't agree with that.  Some people will travel around a lot intellectually and emotionally and then find peace, but some people find it already.   My dad was a contented atheist, who had never really explored spiritual or religious ideas much.   Why would he?

As I said, it depends on the person.   If your father had peace, he doesn't need any path. As simple as that!   

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2017, 03:56:21 PM »
My point is that if a god exists why aren't be all aware of its existence in a way which can't be denied by anyone? For instance, we can all see the sun, moon and stars, and there is plenty of verifiable evidence they aren't an illusion. So if god is there, but making its existence a matter of faith, it is treating humankind very unfairly, especially if there are dire consequences for unbelief, as some folk believe to be the case.
That's a fair point although I think we know that people are capable of denying anything and everything and sometimes stuff to themselves.

I think there are sound philosophical reasons for thinking that that which is not derived but is actual would not be subject to material examination and would not be material. We shouldn't be taken aback by things not susceptible to scientific or empirical examination since we can never empirically measure or observe a state before the empirical or go back to before infinity if that is the case.

I don't think there are dire consequences for just not getting God but there probably are for excising or avoiding God but the consequences spring from ourselves and our not wanting to change or to put it another way what brews up internally.

I think that any experience of the revelation of God starts with what have been referred to as Inklings or the metaphorical ''smell of God'' or the numinous. The description that I can most relate to as describing early awareness of something more comes from Evelyn Waugh who describe it as 'The twitch on the thread'.


Gordon

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2017, 04:54:22 PM »
I think there are sound philosophical reasons for thinking that that which is not derived but is actual would not be subject to material examination and would not be material.

Such as? How, in this approach, do you identify that which is 'not material?

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We shouldn't be taken aback by things not susceptible to scientific or empirical examination since we can never empirically measure or observe a state before the empirical or go back to before infinity if that is the case.

Presumably then you have access to a non-scientific/non-empirical method capable of in some way identifying these 'things', including those 'before the empirical' and/or 'before infinity' (which sounds like an oxymoron to me).

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I don't think there are dire consequences for just not getting God but there probably are for excising or avoiding God but the consequences spring from ourselves and our not wanting to change or to put it another way what brews up internally.

I've read this sentence a few times: I've still no idea what you mean.

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I think that any experience of the revelation of God starts with what have been referred to as Inklings or the metaphorical ''smell of God'' or the numinous. The description that I can most relate to as describing early awareness of something more comes from Evelyn Waugh who describe it as 'The twitch on the thread'.

Do you: how nice.

floo

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2017, 05:42:36 PM »
That's a fair point although I think we know that people are capable of denying anything and everything and sometimes stuff to themselves.

I think there are sound philosophical reasons for thinking that that which is not derived but is actual would not be subject to material examination and would not be material. We shouldn't be taken aback by things not susceptible to scientific or empirical examination since we can never empirically measure or observe a state before the empirical or go back to before infinity if that is the case.

I don't think there are dire consequences for just not getting God but there probably are for excising or avoiding God but the consequences spring from ourselves and our not wanting to change or to put it another way what brews up internally.

I think that any experience of the revelation of God starts with what have been referred to as Inklings or the metaphorical ''smell of God'' or the numinous. The description that I can most relate to as describing early awareness of something more comes from Evelyn Waugh who describe it as 'The twitch on the thread'.

What a convoluted thought process you have. ::)

torridon

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2017, 06:27:18 AM »
Why the real God does not reveal himself is because the real God is not outside. He is hidden inside you and is waiting to be revealed. The process of revealing the God within is unfortunately a very arduous and time consuming journey.....but ultimately worth it.

I could read this as saying God is all in the mind, with which I would agree, and that might mark you as half way to being an atheist.  Now all that is left for you is to recognise that there is nothing supernatural about human mind, or hedgehog mind, or octopus mind for that matter. 

The claim that an arduous journey is necessary to discover some secret of cosmic significance buried within us causes unnecessary angst for people who try to discover this thing and find nothing there, it can leave them feeling rejected and confused or failures.

Sriram

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2017, 06:35:15 AM »
I could read this as saying God is all in the mind, with which I would agree, and that might mark you as half way to being an atheist.  Now all that is left for you is to recognise that there is nothing supernatural about human mind, or hedgehog mind, or octopus mind for that matter. 

The claim that an arduous journey is necessary to discover some secret of cosmic significance buried within us causes unnecessary angst for people who try to discover this thing and find nothing there, it can leave them feeling rejected and confused or failures.


It could also mean that you are half way to being a theist!!!  ;) Think of that! :o

When I say God is not outside it does not translate as 'God is just imaginary'!  That is just the way you like to think of it.

I am just talking of our own personality that is not ego driven and which is universal and selfless.


Bramble

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2017, 08:35:34 AM »

The claim that an arduous journey is necessary to discover some secret of cosmic significance buried within us causes unnecessary angst for people who try to discover this thing and find nothing there, it can leave them feeling rejected and confused or failures.

I don't really understand this assumption that there is some vital secret hidden to us that we must discover through a great hero quest, possibly lasting innumerable lifetimes, in order to render our lives in any way meaningful and/or to avoid dreadful post-mortem torment, possibly eternal. From this we also get the assumption that 'spiritual' experiences must be very special and unusual ones and in many traditions only available to those who have endured great hardships on a long and intense spiritual journey. It all seems to be bound up with a rejection of the 'mundane', a deep disappointment with life as it actually is.

torridon

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2017, 08:46:10 AM »
I don't really understand this assumption that there is some vital secret hidden to us that we must discover through a great hero quest, possibly lasting innumerable lifetimes, in order to render our lives in any way meaningful and/or to avoid dreadful post-mortem torment, possibly eternal. From this we also get the assumption that 'spiritual' experiences must be very special and unusual ones and in many traditions only available to those who have endured great hardships on a long and intense spiritual journey. It all seems to be bound up with a rejection of the 'mundane', a deep disappointment with life as it actually is.

added to which the opportunity to claim privileged knowledge or special status, eg 'Saved' or 'born again' appeals to our narcissistic tendencies and desire for one-upmanship

ekim

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2017, 09:02:11 AM »
added to which the opportunity to claim privileged knowledge or special status, eg 'Saved' or 'born again' appeals to our narcissistic tendencies and desire for one-upmanship
Religious egotism like any other form of egotism is likely to be viewed as something to be free from.  The story of the temptations of Jesus by Satan probably reflects such a conflict.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2017, 11:28:22 AM »
added to which the opportunity to claim privileged knowledge or special status, eg 'Saved' or 'born again' appeals to our narcissistic tendencies and desire for one-upmanship
But not nearly as much as claiming ''No need to be saved''.
What else is new atheism but a celebrity driven narcissism?

Shaker

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2017, 11:36:54 AM »
But not nearly as much as claiming ''No need to be saved''.
Because there's nothing to be saved from, the idea that there is being but a dull delusion of frequently fairly maladapted people.
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What else is new atheism but a celebrity driven narcissism?
It's old atheism with an internet connection.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2017, 11:45:16 AM »
Because there's nothing to be saved from,
That's a positive assertion.......please demonstrate.
Why is having the need for salvation more narcissistic than somebody who thinks they don't need it?
Didn't they use to call the latter self righteousness?

Shaker

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2017, 11:57:04 AM »
That's a positive assertion.......please demonstrate.
I don't have to. The positive assertion is on the part of the goddists who think (a) that there is something to be saved from and (b) their fictional character of choice is the one to do the saving. In the absence of evidential back-up, I'm calling bullshit.
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Why is having the need for salvation more narcissistic than somebody who thinks they don't need it?
Because this supposed need for salvation is typically bound up in an edifice of combined abjection and towering self-regard with the ever so 'umble supplicant in a direct one-on-one relationship with the creator of the universe.

Narcissism doesn't come more autoerotic than that.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 12:00:08 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2017, 12:03:20 PM »
I don't have to. The positive assertion is on the part of the goddists
No, it's on the part of the person making a positive assertion.......and you just did.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 12:08:20 PM by Questions to Christians »

Shaker

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2017, 12:36:56 PM »
No, it's on the part of the person making a positive assertion.......and you just did.
Let's try that one more time: "The positive assertion is on the part of the goddists who think (a) that there is something to be saved from and (b) their fictional character of choice is the one to do the saving. In the absence of evidential back-up, I'm calling bullshit."
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2017, 12:56:50 PM »
Let's try that one more time: "The positive assertion is on the part of the goddists who think (a) that there is something to be saved from and (b) their fictional character of choice is the one to do the saving. In the absence of evidential back-up, I'm calling bullshit."
No Shaker, the positive assertion is the use of the word IS. It doesn't matter if that goes onto an IS NOT the operative word here is the IS and you used it when you said

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Because there's nothing to be saved from,

So having positively asserted....Please demonstrate.

Shaker

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2017, 01:09:30 PM »
No Shaker, the positive assertion is the use of the word IS. It doesn't matter if that goes onto an IS NOT the operative word here is the IS and you used it when you said

So having positively asserted....Please demonstrate.
Ah. Playing dumb, I see.

Full marks - I have to say, you do a sterling job of it.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2017, 01:13:11 PM »
Ah. Playing dumb, I see.

Full marks - I have to say, you do a sterling job of it.
Shaker, you've positively asserted that

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there's nothing to be saved from

Therefore you have a job to do, jump to it or is it just a misfire again from your assertotron?

Shaker

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2017, 01:19:09 PM »
Shaker, you've positively asserted that

Therefore you have a job to do, jump to it or is it just a misfire again from your assertotron?
I don't have one - the ones who have a license to drive one are those who spout positive assertions about there being something to be saved from, which is BUPA - Bullshit Until Proven Actual.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Sriram

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2017, 01:52:30 PM »
I don't really understand this assumption that there is some vital secret hidden to us that we must discover through a great hero quest, possibly lasting innumerable lifetimes, in order to render our lives in any way meaningful and/or to avoid dreadful post-mortem torment, possibly eternal. From this we also get the assumption that 'spiritual' experiences must be very special and unusual ones and in many traditions only available to those who have endured great hardships on a long and intense spiritual journey. It all seems to be bound up with a rejection of the 'mundane', a deep disappointment with life as it actually is.


LOL!   Religious (spiritual) experiences are not special. It is perfectly normal for most people. Billions of people around the world have them and accept them as part of their lives.  It is the minority of atheists who think themselves as special and who think that religious people need to explain themselves and provide evidence and go on the defensive and so on. 

Why should atheists have to understand anything?  Its perfectly alright if you don't.