What is God?

[Shaker]

It is the minority of atheists who think themselves as special and who think that religious people need to explain themselves

When people make absurd claims and bald assertions about the nature of reality which fly in the face of all we've patiently laboured over a very, very long period to understand about the universe then they do need to explain themselves.

Why should atheists have to understand anything?  Its perfectly alright if you don't.

Some of us prefer knowledge to ignorance.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I don't have one - the ones who have a license to drive one are those who spout positive assertions about there being something to be saved from, which is BUPA - Bullshit Until Proven Actual.

Well then why all the asserting Shaker?
In fact you have made another assertion. You have asserted Bullshit. Therefore add that  to your list of stuff asserted and not justified.

IN FACT FOLLOWING THE LOGIC OF YOUR ASSERTION YOUR VERY ASSERTION IS BULLSHIT UNTIL PROVEN ACTUAL.

That didn't help you much did it?

[BeRational]

Well then why all the asserting Shaker?
In fact you have made another assertion. You have asserted Bullshit. Therefore add that  to your list of stuff asserted and not justified.

IN FACT FOLLOWING THE LOGIC OF YOUR ASSERTION YOUR VERY ASSERTION IS BULLSHIT UNTIL PROVEN ACTUAL.

That didn't help you much did it?

The person making the claim of a god or soul or anything else, has the burden of proof.

By default, whatever they are suggesting exists does NOT exist.

That is the default position.

[Shaker]

BRat is right Vlad.

It's all about the burden of proof and who bears it. As I'm sure you know - at least, I hope you would by now - it's the one who makes an assertion who does so. The phrase 'prove it' springs to mind.

So when somebody makes a claim that people are in need of saving (from what?) and that a purportedly supernatural entity is the one to do it, the sceptic need only say: substantiate your assertions with evidence. Until and unless you do so, I am entitled to reject your assertions as just that - empty phrases with nothing to back them up. BUPA is simply the application of the default position.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

BRat is right Vlad.

It's all about the burden of proof and who bears it.

Yes it's the person who positively asserts....and as has been pointed out......That's you, so jump to it.
In the mean time, Be Rational.....be a good chap and keep me in Bacardi and cokes while were waiting.

[Shaker]

We can keep trying to explain it to you, Vlad; unfortunately we can't understand it for you.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

We can keep trying to explain it to you, Vlad; unfortunately we can't understand it for you.

You're dodging your responsibilities. You positively asserted. Now go ahead Justify it.
........can I have some ice with that Be Rational.

[Shaker]

See #42, #44, #50, #52, #53.

[Sassy]

The question is...what is God? Is he a anthropomorphic being somewhere out there or is he a part of our basic personality that we need to identify and realize?! That is the question.

I do not believe that to be the case.  Our mind cannot create ourselves or the world we live in.
So really the answer to that question is the creation cannot create itself and therefore cannot create their creator.

[torridon]

I do not believe that to be the case.  Our mind cannot create ourselves or the world we live in.
So really the answer to that question is the creation cannot create itself and therefore cannot create their creator.

Our minds do create the world, in the sense of our experience of the world.  Looking at your computer screen now, you are not seeing the actual computer screen, but an inner representation of it created by mind.  If there is some music playing in the background, the music you are enjoying is a creation of mind derived from patterns of airborne compression waves.  Every feeling you have, every idea you consider, every sensation you feel, all these things are created by mind, sometimes in fairly direct response to external stimuli, sometimes their origin is in the more obscure tangle of inner emotions.

[Sriram]

I do not believe that to be the case.  Our mind cannot create ourselves or the world we live in.
So really the answer to that question is the creation cannot create itself and therefore cannot create their creator.

Sassy,

I understand your point and it makes sense. Fair enough!

But let me explain why the issue of 'God within' becomes important.

1. No one knows what God really is. Different cultures around the world have had their own image and  concept of God.

2. As we pray and develop our faith in God (any God), we begin to realize that we are experiencing something that is very close to us and not something from a distant supernatural place.

3. By and by, we realize that the God who we are praying to seems to connect to us from within ourselves.  This is something I myself have felt as far back as 45 years ago. I am sure many others have felt so too.

4. Every major spiritual philosophy and religious literature has spoken of the 'God within'.  Most prophets and religious leaders have always spoken of Knowing Oneself, regardless of the culture and the deity they prayed to.   

5. The doubt naturally arises that if God is an individual being, how can he speak and connect from within every human being?  Then we realize that God is not an individual person but a level of Consciousness that is within us.

6. If this higher level of Consciousness is within all humans it must also be within all animals and all other objects. Maybe it is this 'God' that transforms itself into the world.

7. Then why are only some people able to connect to this higher level of consciousness and not everyone?  Why is it hidden from most people? This must be because it is covered by lower levels of consciousness.

8. So...all our religious rituals and prayers must be helping us to eliminate these lower levels of consciousness and helping us to connect this higher consciousness.

9. It is also observed that as people eliminate their lower levels of consciousness through prayer, they automatically become less animal like and more loving and tolerant and selfless. They become more empathetic. 

10. With more involved experiences and analysis, people arrive at other aspects such as Karma, reincarnation, Liberation and so on.

11. It is then realized that it is about individual development rather than about an external God and helpless humans.

12. Modern ideas such as the String Theory help in reinforcing the idea of a pantheistic philosophy.

Hope this helps.

Cheers.

Sriram 

[ippy]

Sassy,

I understand your point and it makes sense. Fair enough!

But let me explain why the issue of 'God within' becomes important.

1. No one knows what God really is. Different cultures around the world have had their own image and  concept of God.

2. As we pray and develop our faith in God (any God), we begin to realize that we are experiencing something that is very close to us and not something from a distant supernatural place.

3. By and by, we realize that the God who we are praying to seems to connect to us from within ourselves.  This is something I myself have felt as far back as 45 years ago. I am sure many others have felt so too.

4. Every major spiritual philosophy and religious literature has spoken of the 'God within'.  Most prophets and religious leaders have always spoken of Knowing Oneself, regardless of the culture and the deity they prayed to.   

5. The doubt naturally arises that if God is an individual being, how can he speak and connect from within every human being?  Then we realize that God is not an individual person but a level of Consciousness that is within us.

6. If this higher level of Consciousness is within all humans it must also be within all animals and all other objects. Maybe it is this 'God' that transforms itself into the world.

7. Then why are only some people able to connect to this higher level of consciousness and not everyone?  Why is it hidden from most people? This must be because it is covered by lower levels of consciousness.

8. So...all our religious rituals and prayers must be helping us to eliminate these lower levels of consciousness and helping us to connect this higher consciousness.

9. It is also observed that as people eliminate their lower levels of consciousness through prayer, they automatically become less animal like and more loving and tolerant and selfless. They become more empathetic. 

10. With more involved experiences and analysis, people arrive at other aspects such as Karma, reincarnation, Liberation and so on.

11. It is then realized that it is about individual development rather than about an external God and helpless humans.

12. Modern ideas such as the String Theory help in reinforcing the idea of a pantheistic philosophy.

Hope this helps.

Cheers.

Sriram

Sriram, is it your higher level of conciousness that enabled you to understand whatever it is that Sass is going on about this time?

By the way their's as much evidence available for this higher level of conciousness idea inside your head as there is that would support this god idea also inside your head; of course if you can provide verifiable evidence then these ideas would become a part of reality, any chance of that Sriram? No__________I didn't think so.

ippy

[SusanDoris]

Sriram, is it your higher level of conciousness that enabled you to understand whatever it is that Sass is going on about this time?

By the way their's as much evidence available for this higher level of conciousness idea inside your head as there is that would support this god idea also inside your head; of course if you can provide verifiable evidence then these ideas would become a part of reality, any chance of that Sriram? No__________I didn't think so.

ippy

I think, you know,  during all the years I have been on message boards, I have asked those who talk of some *higher* consciousness (or mind) many, many times to please describe, define or in some way explain what they are talking about. Number of actual explanations received? Answer: none!!

[ippy]

I think, you know,  during all the years I have been on message boards, I have asked those who talk of some *higher* consciousness (or mind) many, many times to please describe, define or in some way explain what they are talking about. Number of actual explanations received? Answer: none!!

Yes and the silence says it all to me?

'Higher consciousnes', what a stupid thing to say, I often say similar things too but only when joking.

ippy.

[ekim]

Yes and the silence says it all to me?

'Higher consciousnes', what a stupid thing to say, I often say similar things too but only when joking.

ippy.

It's a confusing expression as it gives the impression of superiority.  To some it implies climbing above (transcending) the vicissitudes of living and what the mind harbours so that a different perspective is observed, just as you would observe a different perspective of the land by go up in an air balloon.  Some see it as clarifying or purifying the consciousness in order to see more clearly, instead of 'seeing through a glass darkly'.

[torridon]

Also confusing as the New Agey meaning of consciousness is really rather unrelated to the normal medical meaning of the word, ie that state of alertness which is lost during sleep for instance.  Causes confusion when one person is using the word in one sense and the other using it in the other sense; they are really talking about completely different things.

[Sassy]

Our minds do create the world, in the sense of our experience of the world.

We are straying from the original reasoning of 'what is God'.
Our minds do not create the world by sense of experiences. We behold the world by our senses.
Sight, touch and smell. But even without these things the world would still exist. Try creating something for your senses to experience that has never existed.  It is here we see that futility of such an argument that our minds create the world in the sense of experience is impossible.

Looking at your computer screen now, you are not seeing the actual computer screen, but an inner representation of it created by mind.

Again, you are making something that is, as if only existing because we see it.
The way we use something, be it a computer or the screen, it exists because a man created it. But the elements, components and whatever it is made up from comes from that which was created not by man.
The argument is futile because what we sense and we comprehend from our senses are all from that which we did not create.
Even our senses are created.

If there is some music playing in the background, the music you are enjoying is a creation of mind derived from patterns of airborne compression waves.

Whilst deaf people cannot hear that music but it still exists then the mind is not creating anything. It is a ridiculous notion leading to the sublime in that we the created are not the creator of the created. Because everything we have has come from something man never created.

  Every feeling you have, every idea you consider, every sensation you feel, all these things are created by mind, sometimes in fairly direct response to external stimuli, sometimes their origin is in the more obscure tangle of inner emotions.

The Mind is created, and the sensations we feel like fear are not created by the mind. Even there we are different our tastes in music, food and everything we use our senses for proves this. Without the individual being able to choose there is nothing the mind can choose alone.

We push ourselves alot. But the original truth does not change. The created cannot create the creator.

[floo]

The created cannot create the creator.

Which is why god is powerless as humans created it!

[torridon]

We are straying from the original reasoning of 'what is God'.
Our minds do not create the world by sense of experiences. We behold the world by our senses.
Sight, touch and smell. But even without these things the world would still exist. Try creating something for your senses to experience that has never existed.  It is here we see that futility of such an argument that our minds create the world in the sense of experience is impossible.

Again, you are making something that is, as if only existing because we see it.
The way we use something, be it a computer or the screen, it exists because a man created it. But the elements, components and whatever it is made up from comes from that which was created not by man.
The argument is futile because what we sense and we comprehend from our senses are all from that which we did not create.
Even our senses are created.


Whilst deaf people cannot hear that music but it still exists then the mind is not creating anything. It is a ridiculous notion leading to the sublime in that we the created are not the creator of the created. Because everything we have has come from something man never created.

The Mind is created, and the sensations we feel like fear are not created by the mind. Even there we are different our tastes in music, food and everything we use our senses for proves this. Without the individual being able to choose there is nothing the mind can choose alone.

We push ourselves alot. But the original truth does not change. The created cannot create the creator.

I think you didn't quite understand my post.  I would not say that nothing exists without mind, for sure, plenty of things existed long before minds evolved to experience them. I was just making the point that our experience of things 'out there' is a fabrication of mind.  That is what minds do, they take raw information about the world and construct a rich interpretive fabric of experience from it.

None of this impacts on whether all things were created by a creator, a different matter altogether.  To me this seems like a non-starter of a proposition, firstly because there is no evidence to support it, and secondly, because the implication of this logic is an infinite regress of creators required to create creators.

[ippy]

It's a confusing expression as it gives the impression of superiority.  To some it implies climbing above (transcending) the vicissitudes of living and what the mind harbours so that a different perspective is observed, just as you would observe a different perspective of the land by go up in an air balloon.  Some see it as clarifying or purifying the consciousness in order to see more clearly, instead of 'seeing through a glass darkly'.

In short another collection of words in substitution for, bullshit.

ippy

[Sassy]

Sassy,

I understand your point and it makes sense. Fair enough!

But let me explain why the issue of 'God within' becomes important.

1. No one knows what God really is. Different cultures around the world have had their own image and  concept of God.

If, God exists independently of mankind then God knows who God really is.
In the Jewish religion there has been clear expression of the presence of God. Such that we see what they believe and have been taught by their God comes to pass. We have to admit, it isn't just image or culture with the Jewish faith, it is a faith where the words of their God come to fruition.

2. As we pray and develop our faith in God (any God), we begin to realize that we are experiencing something that is very close to us and not something from a distant supernatural place.

Is there such a thing as a distant supernatural place? The Jewish faith has a God who is active and lives with his people. Same with all faiths who believe in the Messiah. A faith does not develop if there is no true God present. That is my personal opinion.

3. By and by, we realize that the God who we are praying to seems to connect to us from within ourselves.  This is something I myself have felt as far back as 45 years ago. I am sure many others have felt so too.

Whereas  the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob connects through the presence of his Holy Spirit present in man.
I believe we can only know God in our Spirit but the way we know him is clearly by the presence of his Holy Spirit who clearly speaks to man.

4. Every major spiritual philosophy and religious literature has spoken of the 'God within'.  Most prophets and religious leaders have always spoken of Knowing Oneself, regardless of the culture and the deity they prayed to. 

I believe the truth in the Jewish faith shows man knows his God by knowing his truth and obeying him.
Ourselves are of no use in the greater scheme of things when God is speaking to us.  The God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Jesus, changes people and empowers them giving them greater meaning in life. I am not aware of any other religion which does these things which are past and present.

5. The doubt naturally arises that if God is an individual being, how can he speak and connect from within every human being?  Then we realize that God is not an individual person but a level of Consciousness that is within us.

Hocum pocum ... God is not a philosophy, he is not an idea and does not exist within our consciousness.
But the creation of our body and mind can experience God through the channels he has created within us. But most importantly
that channel has to be open to Gods Holy Spirit who joins himself onto our spirit. Whilst every man can connect with God through his Spirit there has to be the Holy Spirit to make the connection.
King James Bible
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

It has always been that way... And the thing which is most clear in my mind was John the Baptist teaching he baptised with water but Jesus baptised with the Holy Spirit. Gods way is always the same in man.

6. If this higher level of Consciousness is within all humans it must also be within all animals and all other objects. Maybe it is this 'God' that transforms itself into the world.

Again, the philosophy of mankind is shown to be lacking. God has made it plain how men can come into his presence.
It does not require our own abilities it is already here and always has been in plain sight for those who believe God.

7. Then why are only some people able to connect to this higher level of consciousness and not everyone?  Why is it hidden from most people? This must be because it is covered by lower levels of consciousness.

Consciousness plays no part in knowing God. TRUTH is what plays the major role and we are all capable of finding that truth for ourselves. All men created equal when it comes to knowing God.

8. So...all our religious rituals and prayers must be helping us to eliminate these lower levels of consciousness and helping us to connect this higher consciousness.

Lower or higher levels of consciousness do not bear any part in knowing God.

9. It is also observed that as people eliminate their lower levels of consciousness through prayer, they automatically become less animal like and more loving and tolerant and selfless. They become more empathetic. 

In whose reality? The Pharisees took great pride in obeying all the laws but none were right with God. Praying and fasting following all the rituals. Knowing God is about a living relationship. God changes the person from within. He writes his laws on
their hearts.

10. With more involved experiences and analysis, people arrive at other aspects such as Karma, reincarnation, Liberation and so on.

Sriram, we both know you read these things. We both know they came from man and his own philosophy.
God exists independently of everything a man is or can do. Never has God been dependent on anything to do with our own philosophy. At some point in every persons realisation they need to learn God exists independent of man.

11. It is then realized that it is about individual development rather than about an external God and helpless humans.

You have basically used your philosophy to make God man made and none existent outside your own physical senses.
God spoke to Abraham, he spoke to Moses and definitely spoke through Jesus Christ. We do not require philosophy to know God just faith in the Truth God has revealed to us.

12. Modern ideas such as the String Theory help in reinforcing the idea of a pantheistic philosophy.

Hope this helps.

Cheers.

Sriram

It did not help, it just compounded and compacted the truth that man makes up what he does not know.
God exists outside our senses and does things without our 'permission'.
Truth means knowing acknowledging that God is not limited by our senses in what he can do.
But man can be limited in knowing God by putting too much store on his own senses.

Cheers x

[Sassy]

I think, you know,  during all the years I have been on message boards, I have asked those who talk of some *higher* consciousness (or mind) many, many times to please describe, define or in some way explain what they are talking about. Number of actual explanations received? Answer: none!!

Because it isn't a 'higher consciousness'(mind). God exists independently of yours and my senses.
Mankind whom know God have their Spirit and body alive to Gods presence by the presence and power of Gods Holy Spirit.
It cannot be defined in human terms for it is spiritual and by the power of God.
But you could read up on Gods Holy Spirit and the bible itself. It shows from cover to cover that man has always known God by the power and presence of his Holy Spirit.

[ippy]

We are straying from the original reasoning of 'what is God'.
Our minds do not create the world by sense of experiences. We behold the world by our senses.
Sight, touch and smell. But even without these things the world would still exist. Try creating something for your senses to experience that has never existed.  It is here we see that futility of such an argument that our minds create the world in the sense of experience is impossible.

Again, you are making something that is, as if only existing because we see it.
The way we use something, be it a computer or the screen, it exists because a man created it. But the elements, components and whatever it is made up from comes from that which was created not by man.
The argument is futile because what we sense and we comprehend from our senses are all from that which we did not create.
Even our senses are created.


Whilst deaf people cannot hear that music but it still exists then the mind is not creating anything. It is a ridiculous notion leading to the sublime in that we the created are not the creator of the created. Because everything we have has come from something man never created.

The Mind is created, and the sensations we feel like fear are not created by the mind. Even there we are different our tastes in music, food and everything we use our senses for proves this. Without the individual being able to choose there is nothing the mind can choose alone.

We push ourselves alot. But the original truth does not change. The created cannot create the creator.

That's a lot of words to use Sass, that, say well, nothing.

ippy   

[Sassy]

The created cannot create the creator.

Which is why god is powerless as humans created it!

You are not even able to use the senses your have to understand what is afforded you to understand.

You deny even the truths and refuse to search them out which show Gods power in the world today.
You simply close your eyes, stick your fingers in your ears and keep repeating the same things over and over again.
There is no open mind and no real ability to want to, or learn to look for the truth out there in the world.
Your reasoning is not reasoning is just avoidance of anything that is contrary to your own chosen truth, which is not a truth but your choice of disbelief.

[floo]

You are not even able to use the senses your have to understand what is afforded you to understand.

You deny even the truths and refuse to search them out which show Gods power in the world today.
You simply close your eyes, stick your fingers in your ears and keep repeating the same things over and over again.
There is no open mind and no real ability to want to, or learn to look for the truth out there in the world.
Your reasoning is not reasoning is just avoidance of anything that is contrary to your own chosen truth, which is not a truth but your choice of disbelief.

It is humans who rule the roost in this world of ours, no god.