What is God?

[wigginhall]

I think you didn't quite understand my post.  I would not say that nothing exists without mind, for sure, plenty of things existed long before minds evolved to experience them. I was just making the point that our experience of things 'out there' is a fabrication of mind.  That is what minds do, they take raw information about the world and construct a rich interpretive fabric of experience from it.

None of this impacts on whether all things were created by a creator, a different matter altogether.  To me this seems like a non-starter of a proposition, firstly because there is no evidence to support it, and secondly, because the implication of this logic is an infinite regress of creators required to create creators.

Historically, this is fascinating stuff.  For one thing, it led to those currents of idealism, exemplified by Bishop Berkeley, who argue that there is only mind, or as some say, Mind.   In BB's case, this also aligned with theism, since this great Mind is a bit like God.   However, I struggle to see how this is a Christian view, since surely Christians accept that there is matter without mind?  Well, OK, God creates matter, I guess.

It can also be seen in Eastern religions.  There are Buddhists who argue that there is no world, and most radical of all, that there is no I nor world, although here they often mean 'separate I' and 'separate world'.    But of course, not theistic. 

I suppose the way out of the idealist trap is in part historical - since the universe existed before we experienced it - and also, inference, it's reasonable to suppose that when I'm out, the house still exists.    This is supposed to be the basis of peek-a-boo games with kids - thrown the toy out of the pram, where is it?  Ah, it's there again.   I play that one with my wife, with a bottle of whisky, where is it?   Did I imagine it?   

[wigginhall]

"Whatever power I may have over my own thoughts, I find the ideas actually perceived by Sense have not a like dependence on my will. When in broad daylight I open my eyes, it is not in my power to choose whether I shall see or no, or to determine what particular objects shall present themselves to my view; and so likewise as to the hearing and other senses; the ideas imprinted on them are not creatures of my will. There is therefore some other Will or Spirit that produces them."

Berkeley,  A Treatise Concerning the Principles of Human Knowledge.

It's that 'therefore' that's dodgy, isn't it?   Even if it's not my will that creates experience, that doesn't imply that 'some other Will' does it.   

[torridon]

"Whatever power I may have over my own thoughts, I find the ideas actually perceived by Sense have not a like dependence on my will. When in broad daylight I open my eyes, it is not in my power to choose whether I shall see or no, or to determine what particular objects shall present themselves to my view; and so likewise as to the hearing and other senses; the ideas imprinted on them are not creatures of my will. There is therefore some other Will or Spirit that produces them."

Berkeley,  A Treatise Concerning the Principles of Human Knowledge.

It's that 'therefore' that's dodgy, isn't it?   Even if it's not my will that creates experience, that doesn't imply that 'some other Will' does it.

Yes, a non sequitur; BB had the misfortune to be born long before Blue and Shaker were around, no doubt they would have slapped him down for entertaining logic fallacies 

[Shaker]

Yes, a non sequitur; BB had the misfortune to be born long before Blue and Shaker were around, no doubt they would have slapped him down for entertaining logic fallacies 

... like a ginger stepchild, old fruit 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Yes, a non sequitur; BB had the misfortune to be born long before Blue and Shaker were around, no doubt they would have slapped him down for entertaining logic fallacies 

I doubt BB would have alighted on a backwater like religionethics and Blue and Shaker wouldn't dare go on a website the type of which BB would have frequented.

[ippy]

You are not even able to use the senses your have to understand what is afforded you to understand.

You deny even the truths and refuse to search them out which show Gods power in the world today.
You simply close your eyes, stick your fingers in your ears and keep repeating the same things over and over again.
There is no open mind and no real ability to want to, or learn to look for the truth out there in the world.
Your reasoning is not reasoning is just avoidance of anything that is contrary to your own chosen truth, which is not a truth but your choice of disbelief.

Sass, it all comes down to you haven't got a shred of evidence that this god you keep going on about even exists, so really until you can substantiate the existence of this god idea you have inside your head, well what's the point of keep going on about it?

ippy

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Sass, it all comes down to you haven't got a shred of evidence that this god you keep going on about even exists, so really until you can substantiate the existence of this god idea you have inside your head, well what's the point of keep going on about it?

ippy

Since the origin or nature of the universe is not known, the latter due to the fact that we do not know the context.in which the universe finds itself in if any.
God therefore is as good a hypothetical cause of origin or context.

Which I guess brings us round to an argument used here called unknown unknown which in the hands of certain folks is just a way of trying to get back to "not god".

Anytime it has been used a known unknown is in fact what is being talked about not an unknown unknown.

[ekim]

In short another collection of words in substitution for, bullshit.

ippy

Bullshit is in the eyes of the beholder.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Bullshit is in the eyes of the beholder.

And sometimes on their shoe as well.

[ippy]

Since the origin or nature of the universe is not known, the latter due to the fact that we do not know the context.in which the universe finds itself in if any.
God therefore is as good a hypothetical cause of origin or context.

Which I guess brings us round to an argument used here called unknown unknown which in the hands of certain folks is just a way of trying to get back to "not god".

Anytime it has been used a known unknown is in fact what is being talked about not an unknown unknown.

You're right about the origin of the universe so until there is some kind of evidenced based explanation no one knows and nor is it an excuse to make up silly superstitious stories about it that have no evidential base.

ippy

[ippy]

Bullshit is in the eyes of the beholder.

It seems to me you're living in a very strange world ekim, if you think that original post of yours I'm referring to, was anything more than bullshit.

ippy

[Sriram]

People who have a problem with words like 'Higher' or 'Superior' are typically adolescent in their mindset.....too full of themselves.

[torridon]

People who have a problem with words like 'Higher' or 'Superior' are typically adolescent in their mindset.....too full of themselves.

More likely it is smug people that like to use such terms, and they are the ones that are too full of themselves.  Also higher or superior are usually judgement values rather than something objective.  Many people make the mistake of saying for instance, that humans are more highly evolved - whereas evolution itself has no values or directions and species evolve according to population and environmental niche dynamics rather than some narrow human idea of what is 'superior'.  This is a case of the smugness of humans, there is nothing objective about it.

[Shaker]

People who have a problem with words like 'Higher' or 'Superior' are typically adolescent in their mindset.....too full of themselves.

... says the amateur (emphasis very much on the amateur) psychologist hawking his wretched blog all over the forum with his pronouncements on what people require.

Not full of himself in any way at all there. No sirree.

[Sriram]

More likely it is smug people that like to use such terms, and they are the ones that are too full of themselves.  Also higher or superior are usually judgement values rather than something objective.  Many people make the mistake of saying for instance, that humans are more highly evolved - whereas evolution itself has no values or directions and species evolve according to population and environmental niche dynamics rather than some narrow human idea of what is 'superior'.  This is a case of the smugness of humans, there is nothing objective about it.

What is smug about people wanting to develop themselves and become more universal, wise, loving and selfless?!!

And Shaker........

[Shaker]

What is smug about people wanting to develop themselves and become more universal, wise, loving and selfless?!!

The smugness comes from those who think they already have these qualities (they call themselves "mature") telling others (who they call "adolescent") what they require.

[floo]

People who have a problem with words like 'Higher' or 'Superior' are typically adolescent in their mindset.....too full of themselves.

That is silly statement. It is more often the people who think they are in their god's gang who are full of themselves, and consider they are superior to unbelievers.

I had plenty of that on another forum, which I have just left. I was accused of having a child's mindset by some Christian posters because of my take on religion.

[ekim]

It seems to me you're living in a very strange world ekim, if you think that original post of yours I'm referring to, was anything more than bullshit.

ippy

Ignoring the ad hominem, those who endeavour to consciously transcend as indicated in my original post would probably say that they live in the same world as everybody else but try not to allow that world to live in them.

[Rhiannon]

What is smug about people wanting to develop themselves and become more universal, wise, loving and selfless?!!

You know someone that's doing that?

[ippy]

Ignoring the ad hominem, those who endeavour to consciously transcend as indicated in my original post would probably say that they live in the same world as everybody else but try not to allow that world to live in them.

Be my guest ekim, transcend away to your hearts content.

ippy

[SusanDoris]

Be my guest ekim, transcend away to your hearts content.

ippy

Transcend is another one of those words which tends to get flung in here and there without an appropriate or relevant definition!

[ippy]

Transcend is another one of those words which tends to get flung in here and there without an appropriate or relevant definition!

Yes Susan, it's a bit like the special letters they put on cars, they don't really mean much, X, is a favourite, SRI, GXL, GT, AMG, not forgetting 'Super'; the manufacturers put these magic letters on to the various models especially the go faster cars, but if it sells them,  good-oh, it keeps people employed.

Likewise to the above, 'Transcend', doesn't mean much but it sells.   

ippy

[ippy]

That is silly statement. It is more often the people who think they are in their god's gang who are full of themselves, and consider they are superior to unbelievers.

I had plenty of that on another forum, which I have just left. I was accused of having a child's mindset by some Christian posters because of my take on religion.

People that think they're superior to you and I Floo? Well I never.

ippy

[ekim]

Transcend is another one of those words which tends to get flung in here and there without an appropriate or relevant definition!

I believe the word 'transcend' has a Latin origin which meant 'to climb across'.  It suggests a barrier or threshold which one has to pass beyond e.g. the mental forms and forces of the psyche, which are sometimes symbolised by water ... crossing a river, walking on the water.  Transcendence is sometimes associated with another word of symbolic meaning - ecstasy - from Greek origin - standing outside of oneself.

[ippy]

I believe the word 'transcend' has a Latin origin which meant 'to climb across'.  It suggests a barrier or threshold which one has to pass beyond e.g. the mental forms and forces of the psyche, which are sometimes symbolised by water ... crossing a river, walking on the water.  Transcendence is sometimes associated with another word of symbolic meaning - ecstasy - from Greek origin - standing outside of oneself.

Also associated with spilling out a load of old__________

ippy