What is God?

[SusanDoris]

I believe the word 'transcend' has a Latin origin which meant 'to climb across'.  It suggests a barrier or threshold which one has to pass beyond e.g. the mental forms and forces of the psyche, which are sometimes symbolised by water ... crossing a river, walking on the water.  Transcendence is sometimes associated with another word of symbolic meaning - ecstasy - from Greek origin - standing outside of oneself.

I too have looked up the etymology of the word, but that doesn't stop people using it whenever they think it will give the context some special significance.
The word psyche is another one that   is used to imply some special meaning, whereas it is another word meaning soul, spirit, etc etc so lacks rational back-up.

[ekim]

I too have looked up the etymology of the word, but that doesn't stop people using it whenever they think it will give the context some special significance.
The word psyche is another one that   is used to imply some special meaning, whereas it is another word meaning soul, spirit, etc etc so lacks rational back-up.

People are always using words in an exaggerated way to give context some special significance.  We are forever hearing words like fantastic, unbelievable, out of this world, mind blowing, stunning.  They are just ways of attempting to express and give life to an inexpressible inner experience.  A rational explanation usually just deadens the expression and doesn't convey the experience.
I assume that those involved with psychology and psychiatry are attempting to provide rational backup to 'psyche'.  I suspect that 'soul' and 'spirit' are analogical words used to express an inner sense of 'other than material'.  The former is of Germanic origin and associated with life and the latter of Latin origin associated with air and breath, also associated with life.

[Rhiannon]

I think we all have moments of ecstasy and transcendence. Aren't they just a normal part of living?

[Shaker]

I think we all have moments of ecstasy and transcendence. Aren't they just a normal part of living?

They have been to me - all too rarely, unfortunately. So it goes.

Things get scratchy when you try to define the word though: whether what's transcended is normal, everyday, humdrum, push-your-trolley-around-Morrisons experience (which is one dictionary definition, and one with which I have no quarrel) or material existence, time and space, which is another but the point where I make my excuses and leave.

I feel a thread of its own coming on 

[ekim]

I think we all have moments of ecstasy and transcendence. Aren't they just a normal part of living?

Yes and I think that the idea behind many, so called, spiritual practices is to expand those moments into a life long blissful or joyous state so that it is expressed into living rather than trying to extract it out of living through the satisfaction of desires.

[Bramble]

Yes and I think that the idea behind many, so called, spiritual practices is to expand those moments into a life long blissful or joyous state so that it is expressed into living rather than trying to extract it out of living through the satisfaction of desires.

Desire for spiritual bliss is just another kind of desire, isn't it?

[Shaker]

Desire for spiritual bliss is just another kind of desire, isn't it?

Absolutely. Buddhism both has a temptation here but also the clearest sight of the temptation - holding that attachment/craving is the root of suffering while recognising that attachment/craving to being rid of attachment/craving is attachment/craving too.

It's all very paradoxical and koan-like. Experienced meditators will tell you that the absolutely euphoric and blissful highs that meditation sometimes throws up - been there, done that - can be the worst possible thing for certain people because, entirely naturally and perfectly reasonably, they like it and want it to happen again and so pursue the euphoria (which rarely comes again, or at any rate not for a long time) rather than practising sitting for its own sake. It's wholly understandably a trap that many fall into, and something you have to be on your guard against.

[Rhiannon]

Yes and I think that the idea behind many, so called, spiritual practices is to expand those moments into a life long blissful or joyous state so that it is expressed into living rather than trying to extract it out of living through the satisfaction of desires.

That depends on what those desires are.

[Rhiannon]

Desire for spiritual bliss is just another kind of desire, isn't it?

And one I find mildly worrying, tbh.

[Sriram]

Desire for spiritual bliss is just another kind of desire, isn't it?

That is lazy thinking.  'Desire for spirituality is  desire too, so let me continue with my desire for mundane things'!!!

Desires are what make us act and do things. We can never live without desires. They are the motivations. The mind works only with desires.

However, like with everything else, desires also have a gradation.   Desire to kill someone is not the same as a desire to save someone. Desire for  spiritual development is not the same as desire for a hedonistic lifestyle.

[Shaker]

Desire for  spiritual development is not the same as desire for a hedonistic lifestyle.

Are they the mature ones versus the adolescent ones, respectively?

[Rhiannon]

Is it 'mature' not to want hedonism because you don't have the energy for it any more?

[Sriram]

Are they the mature ones versus the adolescent ones, respectively?

No...they are two different kinds of classifications.

Evil, cruelty, hedonism, contentment, selflessness, sacrifice, love etc. are to do with ones stage of spiritual development and the basic personality that drives the person.  Maturity, adolescent and child behavior depend on ones cultural and social background.

[Shaker]

Is it 'mature' not to want hedonism because you don't have the energy for it any more?

Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak, sort of thing? 

[ekim]

Desire for spiritual bliss is just another kind of desire, isn't it?

I have a reply for that question but can't post it as I keep getting a Forbidden message.  The words I have used are pretty innocuous.  Perhaps whoever is running this site can put up a list of forbidden words.

[Rhiannon]

I have a reply for that question but can't post it as I keep getting a Forbidden message.  The words I have used are pretty innocuous.  Perhaps whoever is running this site can put up a list of forbidden words.

It's the hosting software filter. When I was a mod we tried figuring out the forbidden words by trial and error. It doesn't like names of medication, certain kinds of sexual relationships or references to gambling, but only some.

[Rhiannon]

Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak, sort of thing? 

Pretty much. 

[ekim]

Desire for spiritual bliss is just another kind of desire, isn't it?

Yes.  An idea behind some practices is that joy/bliss/ ananda is the underlying natural state which has become veiled from consciousness by the contents of the mind e.g. thoughts, concepts, stored emotions.  The practices assist in either removing the veil, which is what revelation meant, or transcending (climbing across) the minds contents.  The process may use desire to initiate it, which is sometimes described as using a thorn to remove a thorn.  Once established, fulfilment replaces desire and both thorns are thrown. 
The way I read Rhiannon's post was that she was talking about those occasions when events precipitate glimpses of that state and we try to recreate the event.  This is like throwing a stone into a pond covered by pondweed and its depths are revealed only to be covered over again and so we keep throwing stones.  Whereas the view is that we are the pond and the superficial pondweed has little relevance to its depths and the byproduct of that realisation is bliss.

[ekim]

It's the hosting software filter. When I was a mod we tried figuring out the forbidden words by trial and error. It doesn't like names of medication, certain kinds of sexual relationships or references to gambling, but only some.

I've found the offending expression ...... I'll spell it differently ...... "P-u-t   t-h-a-t   W-a-y

[Shaker]

Pretty much. 

Not got there yet 

[Rhiannon]

Not got there yet 

I don't intend to either.

[Bramble]

Yes.  An idea behind some practices is that joy/bliss/ ananda is the underlying natural state which has become veiled from consciousness by the contents of the mind e.g. thoughts, concepts, stored emotions.  The practices assist in either removing the veil, which is what revelation meant, or transcending (climbing across) the minds contents.  The process may use desire to initiate it, which is sometimes described as using a thorn to remove a thorn.  Once established, fulfilment replaces desire and both thorns are thrown. 
The way I read Rhiannon's post was that she was talking about those occasions when events precipitate glimpses of that state and we try to recreate the event.  This is like throwing a stone into a pond covered by pondweed and its depths are revealed only to be covered over again and so we keep throwing stones.  Whereas the view is that we are the pond and the superficial pondweed has little relevance to its depths and the byproduct of that realisation is bliss.

Thanks for this, ekim, and for your persistence in getting it published (spellchecker wants to call you skim, btw!)

I'm pretty familiar with these theories. I really wanted to hear what you thought about it all, though I should have made that clearer. Personal experiences are always so much more interesting than abstract ideas.

[Rhiannon]

What I meant by my post is that there are events in everyday life that give me feelings of ecstasy and transcendence. I guess the most obvious ones are to do with love and sex.

[Shaker]

What I meant by my post is that there are events in everyday life that give me feelings of ecstasy and transcendence. I guess the most obvious ones are to do with love and sex.

Oh I say.

[Rhiannon]

I think we have a tendency to overcomplicate things.