Author Topic: Ramming points of view  (Read 3178 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Ramming points of view
« on: July 16, 2017, 08:46:45 AM »
Two things:

What is Humanism by M Rosen being sent to schools.     Source BBC
Philip Pullman books very prominently placed in a special shrine type affair in local Waterstones.

Freedom of humanism yes, freedom from humanism?

By for now.

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17586
Re: Ramming points of view
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2017, 10:07:25 AM »
Two things:

What is Humanism by M Rosen being sent to schools.     Source BBC
So what? How many schools don't have a copy of the bible. Are you really suggesting that we should censor the books schools choose to provide.

Philip Pullman books very prominently placed in a special shrine type affair in local Waterstones.

Freedom of humanism yes, freedom from humanism?

By for now.
Pullman is a best selling author and has a new book out - it is called marketing and good business sense from Waterstones, who are probably hoping they will steal a few additional sales from Amazon with prominent product placement in their shops.

SusanDoris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8265
Re: Ramming points of view
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2017, 10:15:37 AM »
Vlad

Books by Michael Rosen should be in every school, in prominent positions. They are well written, and any book that is well written, whether it is aimed at a particular age group or not, is good for all ages. His work resonates with all children. I never encountered a child who did not like them. His work inspires their writing. Read them and tell me if you find a stated facgt that does not have objective back-up. 

Edited to add I googled and found out more. This is a step forward in human progress.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 10:20:24 AM by SusanDoris »
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17586
Re: Ramming points of view
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2017, 10:36:34 AM »
Vlad

Books by Michael Rosen should be in every school, in prominent positions. They are well written, and any book that is well written, whether it is aimed at a particular age group or not, is good for all ages. His work resonates with all children. I never encountered a child who did not like them. His work inspires their writing. Read them and tell me if you find a stated facgt that does not have objective back-up. 

Edited to add I googled and found out more. This is a step forward in human progress.
There was also a recent court ruling that schools have to teach non religious philosophical world views such as humanism alongside religious philosophies. So this will probably be very helpful as a learning resource to support schools in their legal duty to their pupils.

And Susan is correct that Rosen is an excellent writer and well loved by huge numbers of children, so this book is likely to be both readable and well read. Win, win all round - assuming you want children to gain a broad knowledge of different worldviews.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 11:20:35 AM by ProfessorDavey »

floo

  • Guest
Re: Ramming points of view
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2017, 10:48:03 AM »
Schools should introduce kids to all the world's main philosophies and religions as a subject of general knowledge. Proselytising of course should never be permitted.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Ramming points of view
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2017, 12:12:54 PM »
So what? How many schools don't have a copy of the bible. Are you really suggesting that we should censor the books schools choose to provide.
Pullman is a best selling author and has a new book out - it is called marketing and good business sense from Waterstones, who are probably hoping they will steal a few additional sales from Amazon with prominent product placement in their shops.

1; Ramming down ones point of view is a charge usually against the religious.
    On BBC Sussex where this was discussed the reporter commented that it was the  sending of educational material by religious movements like this that often gets the charge of ramming down and trying to influence.

I think we can include the hoohah of DVDs sent by IDers to schools (and in my view and knowledge were rightly dismissed by science departments in many schools).

Any charge against religious material and support of humanist material similarly sent is therefore humbug. Is your statement ''Win-win'' a bit ''Minty'' perhaps?

2: Where have I suggested banning this material? I am looking at the motives of the people who do it. They say it isn't prosyletising but we can expect no sorrow if such material leads to brain washed humanists.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 12:17:35 PM by Questions to Christians »

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17586
Re: Ramming points of view
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2017, 12:30:01 PM »
1; Ramming down ones point of view is a charge usually against the religious.
    On BBC Sussex where this was discussed the reporter commented that it was the  sending of educational material by religious movements like this that often gets the charge of ramming down and trying to influence.

I think we can include the hoohah of DVDs sent by IDers to schools (and in my view and knowledge were rightly dismissed by science departments in many schools).

Any charge against religious material and support of humanist material similarly sent is therefore humbug. Is your statement ''Win-win'' a bit ''Minty'' perhaps?

2: Where have I suggested banning this material? I am looking at the motives of the people who do it. They say it isn't prosyletising but we can expect no sorrow if such material leads to brain washed humanists.
In what way is the availability of a book in a school 'ramming' ones point of view down children's throats. It isn't - and certainly where this is a book written by an exceptionally well regarded children's author and about a completely mainstream philosophy/worldview it would be odd, and rather worrying, if this book was somehow banned from schools.

The issue of ID material in science classes is completely different as ID isn't science and is not part of the science curriculum (quite rightly) - the courts have ruled that humanism should be part of the RE/philosophy curriculum so the availability of appropriate resources about humanism in a school is essential in order for the school to be able to fulfil its legal requirements.

On 'brainwashing' - until you can come up with any evidence that kids are being 'brainwashed' by proxy by Rosen I think we can comfortably ignore your hysterical comment. And while we are on brainwashing I think we should be much more concerned about schools that expect small children to participate in religious worship than the availability of a book written by a former Children's Laureate.

Owlswing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6945
Re: Ramming points of view
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2017, 01:25:57 PM »
Why is it that the weekly indoctrination by the Christian Church - I cannot speak for other religious denominations not having had any experience of them - of children almost from the time that they are able to talk, is not considered to be, by the Christian Church, the overwhelmingly Christian Commons and the Lords Spiritual and the, predominantly, Christian Lords Temporal, brainwashing?

If it is NOT brainwashing could someone, preferably NOT a Christian, please explain to me what, exactly, it is.


(Reviewed for spelling and grammar before posting) 
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 01:33:29 AM by Owlswing »
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Ramming points of view
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2017, 01:46:12 PM »
Two things:

What is Humanism by M Rosen being sent to schools.     Source BBC
Philip Pullman books very prominently placed in a special shrine type affair in local Waterstones.

Freedom of humanism yes, freedom from humanism?

By for now.
Is your idea of a shrine one of those cardboard book display stand things provided they have books by an atheist in?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Ramming points of view
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2017, 04:07:24 PM »
In what way is the availability of a book in a school 'ramming' ones point of view down children's throats. It isn't - and certainly where this is a book written by an exceptionally well regarded children's author and about a completely mainstream philosophy/worldview it would be odd, and rather worrying, if this book was somehow banned from schools.

The issue of ID material in science classes is completely different as ID isn't science and is not part of the science curriculum (quite rightly) - the courts have ruled that humanism should be part of the RE/philosophy curriculum so the availability of appropriate resources about humanism in a school is essential in order for the school to be able to fulfil its legal requirements.

On 'brainwashing' - until you can come up with any evidence that kids are being 'brainwashed' by proxy by Rosen I think we can comfortably ignore your hysterical comment. And while we are on brainwashing I think we should be much more concerned about schools that expect small children to participate in religious worship than the availability of a book written by a former Children's Laureate.
Are you expecting me to believe that secular Humanists do not want people to become secular Humanists?

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Ramming points of view
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2017, 04:11:17 PM »
Are you expecting me to believe that secular Humanists do not want people to become secular Humanists?
Since you think they're everywhere, why not find one and ask them? Shouldn't be difficult, if they're under every bed and in every wardrobe, as you claim.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Ramming points of view
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2017, 04:14:35 PM »
Since you think they're everywhere, why not find one and ask them? Shouldn't be difficult, if they're under every bed and in every wardrobe, as you claim.
I don't need to, they and their fellow travellers celebrate the increased Secular Humanism in the UK with regularity on here.

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Ramming points of view
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2017, 04:27:19 PM »
I don't need to, they and their fellow travellers celebrate the increased Secular Humanism in the UK with regularity on here.
So why ask?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33188
Re: Ramming points of view
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2017, 04:28:57 PM »
Is your idea of a shrine one of those cardboard book display stand things provided they have books by an atheist in?
You are right of course....as shrines go it is nothing like the corpus of offered wordage Bluehillside has lovingly built up for me over years.

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17586
Re: Ramming points of view
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2017, 04:41:17 PM »
Are you expecting me to believe that secular Humanists do not want people to become secular Humanists?
We aren't talking about whether people who have a particular belief would, ideally, hope others agree with them.

No, we are talking about the methods that the might use to ensure that others believe the same as they do.

It isn't secular humanists who devise initiation ceremonies to 'welcome' new born babies into their belief with parents required to promise to bring up the child to believe.

It isn't secular humanists who create complex layers of further initiation throughout childhood linked to belief but carefully (and disingenuously) also linked to growing up.

It isn't secular humanists who get the state to fund thousands of schools run by their organised belief system which have as part of the their ethos a requirement to ensure that the children that attend become members of that belief system.

Nope those all exist elsewhere - I guess you know where that is don't you Vlad.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 07:28:35 PM by ProfessorDavey »

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32500
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Ramming points of view
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2017, 07:16:48 PM »
I don't need to, they and their fellow travellers celebrate the increased Secular Humanism in the UK with regularity on here.

It should always be a cause for joy when more people give up believing in superstitious nonsense.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17586
Re: Ramming points of view
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2017, 07:33:37 PM »
It should always be a cause for joy when more people give up believing in superstitious nonsense.
It must be endlessly painful for those who are religious seeing their elaborate attempts to ensure children end up religious fail, despite all the ceremony, all the schooling, all the Sunday schools, all the first communion and its preparation, all the confirmation.

And all the more galling to see so many reject religion and accept a non religious and broadly humanist philosophy even though humanists haven't done anything at all in an attempt to 'win' their belief. All they have done is to have a worldview which seems so eminently plausible and compelling.

Point being - you can put as much spin and marketing into your 'message' as you like, but if your fundamental message is weak you will be beaten time after time by a compelling message with no spin or marketing whatsoever.

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Ramming points of view
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2017, 07:40:51 PM »
It must be endlessly painful for those who are religious seeing their elaborate attempts to ensure children end up religious fail, despite all the ceremony, all the schooling, all the Sunday schools, all the first communion and its preparation, all the confirmation.

And all the more galling to see so many reject religion and accept a non religious and broadly humanist philosophy even though humanists haven't done anything at all in an attempt to 'win' their belief. All they have done is to have a worldview which seems so eminently plausible and compelling.
Prof.:

I often think of this but can't find it - some time back you produced one of your habitually well-sourced and detailed posts about the dismal retention rates of religion in those brought up in one and the next-to-neglible rates of adoption of religion in those not brought up in one.

It impressed me then and has stuck in the brain box since then, but I can't find it. If you can repost the stats, or provide a link to the post in question, I'll be in your debt.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17586
Re: Ramming points of view
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2017, 08:04:19 PM »
Prof.:

I often think of this but can't find it - some time back you produced one of your habitually well-sourced and detailed posts about the dismal retention rates of religion in those brought up in one and the next-to-neglible rates of adoption of religion in those not brought up in one.

It impressed me then and has stuck in the brain box since then, but I can't find it. If you can repost the stats, or provide a link to the post in question, I'll be in your debt.
The seminal work was done by David Voas, although his findings have been corroborated by a number of other surveys including the British Social Attitudes survey.

He looked at children who were brought up in a household with 2 religious parents, one religious and one non religious or 2 non religious parents. He then assessed whether or not the children chose to be religious when they became adults.

He found that only 50% of children brought up in a religious household with 2 religious parents chose to remain religious as adults.

When there was only one religious parent, and one non religious, that figure dropped to 25%.

By contrast a child brought up in a household with 2 non religious parents had a 97% likelihood of choosing to be non religious when they reached adulthood.

So despite all that effort on the part of religious parents to bring their children up as religious (with the associate cultural community trying to achieve the same - faith schools, Sunday schooling, all those 'initiation' ceremonies) they have only a 50:50 chance of being successful in transferring their religiosity.

Yet the non religious parents - most of whom will do nothing active to try to get their children to be non religious - have nigh on 100% likelihood of passing on their non religiosity.