Author Topic: Quoting Jesus  (Read 68502 times)

Shaker

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2017, 10:10:14 AM »
It was in reference to nonce priests.
Yes ... not so much protected by the holy spirit as protected by the church of your absolute, final, unchangeable truth last year.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2017, 10:11:08 AM »
Er, yes there is

Then in your infinite wisdom please tell us all why.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2017, 10:12:35 AM »
When you need to recall what someone has said, it helps if you've understood it. They couldn't have written it down immediately because they didn't understand it; they make it quite clear that they didn't. Eg John 14-16.

John's all made up, Spud. The Jesus in that's a very different character to the Jesus in the other Gospels. Haven't you noticed?

ad_orientem

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2017, 10:17:05 AM »
Yes ... not so much protected by the holy spirit as protected by the church of your absolute, final, unchangeable truth last year.
[/quote

You're a bore.
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Shaker

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2017, 10:24:26 AM »
Repeated assertions of absurd nonsense isn't exactly setting the forum alight either.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2017, 04:24:34 PM »
There's nothing circular about it. You either believe in the Holy Spirit or not. If you do then it's possible to believe that he protected the scriptures from error; if you don't, then obviously you don't believe it's possible. It's as simple as that. I would have thought that was blindingly obvious.

If the HS exists, then it is possible. However, one would then expect there to be absolute consistency of detail, not obvious and irreconcilable contradictions*. As Rhiannon has noted, the Jesus of John is a very different character from the Jesus of the synoptics.

*Of course, the contradictions are reconcilable if you start with the premiss that the gospels are divinely inspired - then by varied and devious means you can always make a black out of a white, and foist your 'interpretation' on the gullible.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2017, 08:34:41 PM »
There's nothing circular about it.
Q - How do you know that scriptures are free from error?

A - Because the Holy Spirit keeps them from error

Q - But how do you know that the Holy Spirit exists and keeps scripture free from error?

A - Because that is what it says in scripture.

Q - But how do you know that the scriptures are correct, in other words free from error?

Return to answer one. And keep circular arguing until dizzy.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2017, 09:01:32 PM »
Pack of lies, really How so?
So to start with let's talk about the primary claim which is that a human was clinically dead for three days and then came back to life. There is no evidence that this has ever happened anywhere and it is physiologically impossible.

But let's for the sake of arguments accept that this did happen - in which case it would be, literally, just about the most astonishing thing ever to have happened.

So the second claim - that this impossibly astonishing thing was witnessed by 500 people (I gather all in one place) - were that to have actually happened it would have spread like wildfire. It beggars belief that were these 500 people to have seen this impossible thing that they would have kept quite - they'd have told everyone they knew and in a couple of tellings this would pretty well have covered pretty well the whole population. So it would undoubtedly have come to the attention of both the Jewish and Roman authorities.

Yet there is nothing - not a dicky bird from the supposed witnesses, from the greater population, and critically from the Jewish and Roman authorities, who were assiduous record keepers. Not a sausage.

Also were this to happen surely the population of Jerusalem would have undoubtedly accepted the early Christian belief and Christianity would have grown out of Jerusalem. But it didn't - it took hold elsewhere, not where those apparent 500 lived.

So for this all to be possible it would require those witnessing a completely astonishing event to simply ignore it, not tell all their family and friends. And also to ignore it theologically - saw a dead man come alive, says he's the son of god - but hey no biggy - I'll carry on with my existing belief. That simply defies credulity.

trippymonkey

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2017, 09:08:34 PM »
Nowt at all mentioned in ANY Roman reports ?!!?

Wonder why ?!!?!? ;) :o

Nearly Sane

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2017, 09:14:55 PM »
Nowt at all mentioned in ANY Roman reports ?!!?

Wonder why ?!!?!? ;) :o

Because we have very few Roman reports of Isreal at the time, effectively none contemporary and there is no reason to suspect that it was seen as a big thing.

trippymonkey

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2017, 09:20:57 PM »
Thanks
Says it all really.
Seem to mean sod all to the Romans.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2017, 09:27:01 PM »
Let's remember that according to the accounts of the crucifixion he was nailed up with a couple of thieves, Rome crucified a lot of people. This was in a backwater of the empire, a troublesome one certainly but not somewhere you went to make your name or fortune.

Spud

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2017, 10:19:45 PM »
I thought the conventional view was that they rapidly scattered to a range of places where they preached about Jesus. So by the time the first records we have were written they were mostly dead and hadn't been together for perhaps 30 or more years.

And even had they been together, why would you think that would result in an accurate account. I think that is extremely unlikely as they were sadly neutral were they. If you want an accurate account of a football match you don't ask a fanatical and passionate supporter of one team, totally caught up in the emotion of the match. For that person it was the clearest penalty in the world and the ref was blind for not giving it. No - you ask a dispassionate neutral, or if there isn't one better to get accounts from the supporters of both sides.

The bible is the equivalent of an account written by fanatical and passionate supporters of one team only, with no balancing view available whatsoever. It is partial and biased and therefore should be read with that is mind.

So why do they do their best to highlight the disciples failure to understand? No bias there. In John 14 where did the four questions asked by Peter, Thomas, Philip and Judas  (not Iscariot) come from, if not the memories of at least a few of them?

Matthew was overseen by James and Mark by Peter. Luke by Paul. John was Jesus' best mate so he knew him in a different way from the rest.

ad_orientem

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2017, 10:32:07 PM »
Q - How do you know that scriptures are free from error?

A - Because the Holy Spirit keeps them from error

Q - But how do you know that the Holy Spirit exists and keeps scripture free from error?

A - Because that is what it says in scripture.

Q - But how do you know that the scriptures are correct, in other words free from error?

Return to answer one. And keep circular arguing until dizzy.

That's not quite what I said. I said if you believe in the Holy Spirit then you can also believe that it's possible for the Holy Spirit to protect the scriptures from all error. If you don't then it isn't possible. There's a subtle difference. Take your time....
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #39 on: July 20, 2017, 07:47:22 AM »
That's not quite what I said. I said if you believe in the Holy Spirit then you can also believe that it's possible for the Holy Spirit to protect the scriptures from all error. If you don't then it isn't possible. There's a subtle difference. Take your time....
And how does anyone come to a belief in the holy spirit and a belief that the holy spirit protected the scriptures from error except, directly or indirectly, via the scriptures.

And round you go again.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #40 on: July 20, 2017, 08:04:40 AM »
Matthew was overseen by James and Mark by Peter. Luke by Paul. John was Jesus' best mate so he knew him in a different way from the rest.
Evidence please.

The timing of the gospels by itself makes non-sense of your claims. For example James is believed to have died on about AD44, some 30 years before the gospel of Matthew.

floo

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2017, 08:27:11 AM »
So why do they do their best to highlight the disciples failure to understand? No bias there. In John 14 where did the four questions asked by Peter, Thomas, Philip and Judas  (not Iscariot) come from, if not the memories of at least a few of them?

Matthew was overseen by James and Mark by Peter. Luke by Paul. John was Jesus' best mate so he knew him in a different way from the rest.

And I wonder what sort of relationship that was?

ekim

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #42 on: July 20, 2017, 09:26:19 AM »
So why do they do their best to highlight the disciples failure to understand? No bias there. In John 14 where did the four questions asked by Peter, Thomas, Philip and Judas  (not Iscariot) come from, if not the memories of at least a few of them?

Matthew was overseen by James and Mark by Peter. Luke by Paul. John was Jesus' best mate so he knew him in a different way from the rest.
Was that he same John who was described as illiterate in Acts 4:13?

Spud

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #43 on: July 20, 2017, 10:15:14 AM »
Evidence please.

James and Matthew are similar in the nature of their content, saying a lot about helping those in need, for example. Since Matthew had previously been a tax official, he would have been chosen to write the first account; he would have been guided by the church leader, James as to what he included.
Mark adds eyewitness details to Matthew's account, but omits much of the sermon material. Someone is clearly supervising him, telling him "cut this bit out, enough has been said" and "there were other boats with us". Who is this more likely to have been than Peter, with whom Mark spent time?
Luke traveled with Paul, hence his gospel is structured around Jesus' journey towards Jerusalem.
John wrote down the content of the fourth gospel (21:24), which was then used by a scribe (21:25). Somehow it came to be structured around seven miraculous signs.

Quote
The timing of the gospels by itself makes non-sense of your claims. For example James is believed to have died on about AD44, some 30 years before the gospel of Matthew.

Matthew must have been written while James was still alive, then.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 10:20:55 AM by Spud »

floo

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #44 on: July 20, 2017, 10:21:09 AM »
James and Matthew are similar in the nature of their content, saying a lot about helping those in need, for example. Since Matthew had previously been a tax official, he would have been chosen to write the first account; he would have been guided by the church leader, James as to what he included.
Mark adds eyewitness details to Matthew's account, but omits much of the sermon material. Someone is clearly supervising him, telling him "cut this bit out, enough has been said" and "there were other boats with us". Who is this more likely to have been than Peter, with whom Mark spend time?
Luke traveled with Paul, hence his gospel is structured around Jesus' journey towards Jerusalem.
John wrote down the content of the fourth gospel (21:24), which was then used by a scribe (21:25). Somehow it came to be structured around seven miraculous signs.

Matthew must have been written while James was still alive, then.

James didn't write one of the books of the Bible!

ad_orientem

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #45 on: July 20, 2017, 11:06:07 AM »
He wrote an epistle.
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Sassy

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #46 on: July 20, 2017, 11:10:58 AM »
The gospels were written along time after Jesus died, I don't see how it is possible for even those who knew Jesus in person to have been able to quote him word for word years later. I very much doubt they wrote them down at the time he was actually supposed to have said those things. What Jesus actually said and the meaning of his words, could have been very different to what the gospels quoted him as saying.

How many of us could quote accurately word for word something which was said to us last week, for instance? The game of Chinese whispers makes my point well, a sentence which is passed down the line is nothing like it was when it started out.

A quick bible lesson you have never learned though claim to have been taught.

Zechariah 4:6  KJV
Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.


2 Peter 1:21 KJV
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

John 16:13 (KJV)

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

King James Version
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


You see now how God makes foolish the knowledge of scholars.
You see you think only in the flesh and by the means of flesh.
But God shows as does those taught by Gods Holy Spirit that all men who belong to God who know Christ have the Spirit of God
and he imparts all truth to believers throughout the history of the bible and God being with Man.

You cannot know what is true in the bible, no more than you can understand how the believer in the Spirit understands what
is true in the bible. It is a spiritual thing for those reborn of the Spirit. But the bible DOES show YOU that if you took the time to actually read it, that it tells you how people can know the truth.

The Holy Spirit whom is present from beginning to the end of the bible.

King James Version
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


Now if you choose, even as a worldly scholar to learn these things... you will never again ask that question because you will already have the answer to it.  We as believers can know what Christ said because of the truth which God has taught us.

We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #47 on: July 20, 2017, 11:30:28 AM »
James and Matthew are similar in the nature of their content, saying a lot about helping those in need, for example. Since Matthew had previously been a tax official, he would have been chosen to write the first account; he would have been guided by the church leader, James as to what he included.
Mark adds eyewitness details to Matthew's account, but omits much of the sermon material. Someone is clearly supervising him, telling him "cut this bit out, enough has been said" and "there were other boats with us". Who is this more likely to have been than Peter, with whom Mark spent time?
Luke traveled with Paul, hence his gospel is structured around Jesus' journey towards Jerusalem.
John wrote down the content of the fourth gospel (21:24), which was then used by a scribe (21:25). Somehow it came to be structured around seven miraculous signs.
None of that fits with what serious bible scholars think - particularly as there is no certainty about the actual authors of the gospels - let alone who might have 'supervised' them.

Matthew must have been written while James was still alive, then.
Contradicts serious bible scholarly consensus who date Matthew around 70AD at the very earliest, with most scholars suggesting between 80-90AD.

ad_orientem

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #48 on: July 20, 2017, 12:18:09 PM »
Yes, yes! We all know the arguments. They mention the destruction of the Temple therefore they must have been written after 70 AD. Seems like a massive non sequitur to me or the argument of an atheist or someone on the edge of apostasy.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #49 on: July 20, 2017, 12:25:39 PM »
Yes, yes! We all know the arguments. They mention the destruction of the Temple therefore they must have been written after 70 AD. Seems like a massive non sequitur to me or the argument of an atheist or someone on the edge of apostasy.
Or a sensible, objective, consistent and neutral approach to dating historical documents used by serious academics engaged in serious and credible academic study.