Author Topic: Quoting Jesus  (Read 68493 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #500 on: September 05, 2017, 03:32:39 PM »


It's actually unclear what you're claiming: you say you've had an encounter with the divine then you deny you're invoking the divine
Yes Christians claim an encounter. But that is not the history we are discussing. We are discussing the resurrection among other events.
As historical events they would have been witnessed without dependence on faith or lack of it. I see no reason to invoke divinity or faith or my experience here.

As I have said to describe a physical resurrection as a matter of faith or divinity is a mistake. Since the problem of induction allows us to postulate a physical resurrection as an unexplained rearrangement of matter which technically could be observed.

A spiritual resurrection after the death of Jesus would in fact be more convenient in one sense since it would chime with my experience and would in fact be less of an embarrassment in terms of having obligations to announce and explain it.

But i'm afraid it is there as an historical claim of a physical resurrection with witnesses and there it is.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 03:35:19 PM by So like Vlad it might as well be Vlad »

Maeght

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #501 on: September 05, 2017, 03:35:42 PM »

But i'm afraid it is there as an historical claim of a physical resurrection with witnesses and there it is.

Shouldn't that be claims of witnesses?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #502 on: September 05, 2017, 03:40:31 PM »
Shouldn't that be claims of witnesses?
Or even a historical claim of witnesses I suppose.
Did I not use the word claim? Oh I did.

floo

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #503 on: September 05, 2017, 03:48:19 PM »
Very Good and I have a new name for you when you change yours. ''Antony Floo gave up atheism'' Ha Ha Ha.

I don't get that?

Maeght

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #504 on: September 05, 2017, 03:49:16 PM »
Or even a historical claim of witnesses I suppose.
Did I not use the word claim? Oh I did.

You did. l just wanted to emphasise that it is claimed there are witnesses but no independent accounts.

Maeght

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #505 on: September 05, 2017, 03:50:52 PM »
I don't get that?

A reference to Anthony Flew. An interesting character. Not sure why it was funny though.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #506 on: September 05, 2017, 03:59:17 PM »
I don't get that?
Antony Flew was an atheist philosopher and key person in evidentialism who gave up atheism. Gave atheism up, packed atheism in, flushed atheism down the toilet, binned it, repudiated it. Gave it the bums rush, flicked it the middle finger, bid it aufwiedersehen, wished it luck as he waved it goodbye, had a whip round for it, gave it the last rites, buried it in boot hill, left it in the big white bag outside the charity shop. 

floo

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #507 on: September 05, 2017, 04:01:19 PM »
A reference to Anthony Flew. An interesting character. Not sure why it was funny though.

Nor do I, but then working out what Vlad is on about isn't exactly easy.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #508 on: September 05, 2017, 04:15:17 PM »
You did. l just wanted to emphasise that it is claimed there are witnesses but no independent accounts.
OK in which case I just want to state that we do not know the faith positions of the 500 or so witnesses claimed by Paul. If that's what you mean by ''independent''?
Were the witnesses people who became what we called Christians or were they philosophical materialists or strict monolithic monotheristic Jews or Ebionites or what?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 04:23:38 PM by So like Vlad it might as well be Vlad »

BeRational

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #509 on: September 05, 2017, 04:18:51 PM »
Antony Flew was an atheist philosopher and key person in evidentialism who gave up atheism. Gave atheism up, packed atheism in, flushed atheism down the toilet, binned it, repudiated it. Gave it the bums rush, flicked it the middle finger, bid it aufwiedersehen, wished it luck as he waved it goodbye, had a whip round for it, gave it the last rites, buried it in boot hill, left it in the big white bag outside the charity shop.

He was also senile at the time.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #510 on: September 05, 2017, 04:26:21 PM »
He was also senile at the time.
it obviously confers some advantages then.

Maeght

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #511 on: September 05, 2017, 04:48:40 PM »
Antony Flew was an atheist philosopher and key person in evidentialism who gave up atheism. Gave atheism up, packed atheism in, flushed atheism down the toilet, binned it, repudiated it. Gave it the bums rush, flicked it the middle finger, bid it aufwiedersehen, wished it luck as he waved it goodbye, had a whip round for it, gave it the last rites, buried it in boot hill, left it in the big white bag outside the charity shop.

He declared himself a deist but it is worth reading up on what he said he believed and why - although this seemed to vary.

Maeght

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #512 on: September 05, 2017, 04:50:13 PM »
OK in which case I just want to state that we do not know the faith positions of the 500 or so witnesses claimed by Paul. If that's what you mean by ''independent''?
Were the witnesses people who became what we called Christians or were they philosophical materialists or strict monolithic monotheristic Jews or Ebionites or what?

No, I meant contemporary accounts from sources outside of the Bible. The philosophical position of those claiming there were witnessesis more relevant I would think
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 04:53:22 PM by Maeght »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #513 on: September 05, 2017, 05:49:12 PM »
No, I meant contemporary accounts from sources outside of the Bible. The philosophical position of those claiming there were witnessesis more relevant I would think
That's ancient history i'm afraid. We have a limited range of extant viewpoints throughout ancient history.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #514 on: September 05, 2017, 06:15:08 PM »
Wow, I have just come up with a good username for you when you change it again, 'Vlad the Confused'! ;D
You just have it in for Transnominalists like me.

Maeght

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #515 on: September 05, 2017, 06:21:26 PM »
That's ancient history i'm afraid. We have a limited range of extant viewpoints throughout ancient history.

Sure but its always worth remembering.

SweetPea

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #516 on: September 05, 2017, 08:16:47 PM »
Antony Flew was an atheist philosopher and key person in evidentialism who gave up atheism. Gave atheism up, packed atheism in, flushed atheism down the toilet, binned it, repudiated it. Gave it the bums rush, flicked it the middle finger, bid it aufwiedersehen, wished it luck as he waved it goodbye, had a whip round for it, gave it the last rites, buried it in boot hill, left it in the big white bag outside the charity shop.

Vlad, am I right in thinking Antony Flew was an atheist to which the discovery of DNA gave him an awakening to the realisation that there was something really worth questioning? I know this has happened to other ex-atheists.
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power and of love and of a sound mind ~ 2 Timothy 1:7

Nearly Sane

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #517 on: September 05, 2017, 08:24:36 PM »
Vlad, am I right in thinking Antony Flew was an atheist to which the discovery of DNA gave him an awakening to the realisation that there was something really worth questioning? I know this has happened to other ex-atheists.
No, given we are talking the 2000s and that he seems to have leaned to deism.

Shaker

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #518 on: September 05, 2017, 08:26:38 PM »
Vlad, am I right in thinking Antony Flew was an atheist to which the discovery of DNA gave him an awakening to the realisation that there was something really worth questioning?
Not quite.

Antony Flew was the atheist who thought that the lack (as he then thought) of a plausible naturalistic account of the origin of life led to a deist, Aristotelian god*, but who later admitted that he hadn't kept up with the relevant science (e.g. organic chemistry) and had allowed himself to be misled by those with a religious axe to grind, confessing that he had "made a fool" of himself in the affair. (Flew's own phrase, not mine, hence the quotation marks).

I hope this answers your question, albeit one put to Vlad; from recent experience Vlad's grasp of Flew's muddled latter years isn't exactly all that.

* If anyone should be left in any doubt that a very elderly man's once tack-sharp faculties were not as they used to be, the evidence lies in the fact that he felt this was a good enough argument to accept deism and not the rancid barrel of donkey jizz that it actually is, to wit, the god-of-the-gaps fallacy.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 08:39:15 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

SweetPea

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #519 on: September 05, 2017, 08:43:38 PM »
I found this on Wiki...

In 2007, in an interview with Benjamin Wiker, Flew said again that his deism was the result of his "growing empathy with the insight of Einstein and other noted scientists that there had to be an Intelligence behind the integrated complexity of the physical Universe" and "my own insight that the integrated complexity of life itself – which is far more complex than the physical Universe – can only be explained in terms of an Intelligent Source."
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power and of love and of a sound mind ~ 2 Timothy 1:7

Shaker

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #520 on: September 05, 2017, 08:44:32 PM »
I found this on Wiki...

In 2007, in an interview with Benjamin Wiker, Flew said again that his deism was the result of his "growing empathy with the insight of Einstein and other noted scientists that there had to be an Intelligence behind the integrated complexity of the physical Universe" and "my own insight that the integrated complexity of life itself – which is far more complex than the physical Universe – can only be explained in terms of an Intelligent Source."
Smashing.

However, he changed his mind. (In a rather sad fashion, at that).

Oh - argument from authority fallacy; invoking Einstein or any other big name adds nothing. "His own insight" meant diddly doo dah - he was a philosopher, not a biochemist. Fred Hoyle - an astrophysicist - similarly used to make an arse of himself quite regularly when he used to try to stray into biology and chemistry. Creationists - by definition not the brightest lamps in the lane - still quote him to this day.

Sad how he slipped at the end. It wouldn't have happened earlier.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 08:50:39 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

SweetPea

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #521 on: September 05, 2017, 08:51:19 PM »
Smashing.

However, he changed his mind. (In a rather sad fashion, at that).

Oh - argument from authority fallacy; invoking Einstein or any other big name adds nothing. "His own insight" meant diddly doo dah - he was a philosopher, not a biochemist.

Sad how he slipped at the end. It wouldn't have happened earlier.

I'm not sure he did 'slip at the end'. Checkout Wiki.... which seems to say differently..
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power and of love and of a sound mind ~ 2 Timothy 1:7

Shaker

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #522 on: September 05, 2017, 08:56:05 PM »
I'm not sure he did 'slip at the end'. Checkout Wiki.... which seems to say differently..
Already have.

It doesn't have a fraction of the detail and evidence of the New York Times article by Mark Oppenheimer: http://tinyurl.com/yd9b7g3k
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #523 on: September 05, 2017, 08:58:26 PM »
he was a philosopher, not a biochemist. Fred Hoyle - an astrophysicist - similarly used to make an arse of himself quite regularly when he used to try to stray into biology and chemistry.
It cuts both ways of course....... Myers, Coyne and Dawkins in philosophy and of course Hawking who went the whole 9 yards and declared science had made philosophy redundant.

Shaker

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #524 on: September 05, 2017, 09:01:09 PM »
It cuts both ways of course....... Myers, Coyne and Dawkins in philosophy
Only courtiers think that you need to be a formally-trained academic philosopher to identify a horseshit argument when you hear one.

Quote
and of course Hawking who went the whole 9 yards and declared science had made philosophy redundant.
Feynman did that decades ago.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.