Author Topic: Quoting Jesus  (Read 68801 times)

floo

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #125 on: July 21, 2017, 09:26:18 AM »
And that has been outlined to you several times on this thread.
Please provide reasons why you even suspect lying has gone on in this case.

Because the claims aren't credible!

Gordon

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #126 on: July 21, 2017, 09:30:31 AM »
And that has been outlined to you several times on this thread.

Nope - all I've seen is evasion.

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Please provide reasons why you even suspect lying has gone on in this case.

Nope - I've asked you this question, since you support the NT accounts the burden of proof is yours and not mine.

I'm sceptical of the NT because its proponents haven't addressed the risks of mistake or lies - perhaps you can reassure me.

Shaker

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #127 on: July 21, 2017, 09:40:11 AM »
Bob, bob, duck dive weave ... :D
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #128 on: July 21, 2017, 09:44:53 AM »
I think all this talk of mistake or lies is a tad unfair. Nobody's mentioning myth.


Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #129 on: July 21, 2017, 09:48:32 AM »
Nope - all I've seen is evasion.

Nope - I've asked you this question, since you support the NT accounts the burden of proof is yours and not mine.

I'm sceptical of the NT because its proponents haven't addressed the risks of mistake or lies - perhaps you can reassure me.
Nope, You've had outlined what procedures are brought upon ancient historical documents which interrelate. Am I able to hook anybody up to a polygraph in this case? No.
Is the suggestion of lying the default position here No this in my view a piece of innuendo.
Since I have outlined why I think this is not a lie, that numerous people saw Jesus post Mortem and that there is no evidence of a conspiracy and that a conspiracy would likely have failed given local interest and according to modern research on conspiracy survival and that a model conspiracy does not fit the surrounding history and that the latest of works such as The God who wasn't there hasn't garnered much support. There is a very high probability of truth here.
One can eliminate the probability of lies by demonstrating the probability of truth.
Now there was another piece of innuendo but as it wasn't yours I shall not dwell on it.

Since you are meeting judgment on me I shall reciprocate over your approach here

Genetic fallacy
Special pleading
Argument from personal incredulity.

Enjoy the rest of your hols ya hear.

Shaker

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #130 on: July 21, 2017, 09:49:43 AM »
I think all this talk of mistake or lies is a tad unfair.
Well, they are possibilities which can't be ruled out unless you have some means of doing so: Vlad is being evasive about whether he has such means and if so, what they are.

Of course, we know why.

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Nobody's mentioning myth.
#130  ;)
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #131 on: July 21, 2017, 09:49:55 AM »
Because the claims aren't credible!
Argument from personal incredulity?

Rhiannon

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #132 on: July 21, 2017, 09:52:40 AM »
Well, they are possibilities which can't be ruled out unless you have some means of doing so: Vlad is being evasive about whether he has such means and if so, what they are.

Of course, we know why.
#130  ;)

So G did. In which case lies or mistake should have the third option added then - myth. Because myth is neither a lie nor a mistake.

Shaker

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #133 on: July 21, 2017, 09:53:54 AM »
Argument from personal incredulity?
Your entire shtick seems to be the argument from credulity, Vlad - I want to think it's true, therefore it's true (even though I've offered no methodology whatsoever to rule out the distinct possibilities of lies or mistakes).
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #134 on: July 21, 2017, 09:55:25 AM »
So G did. In which case lies or mistake should have the third option added then - myth. Because myth is neither a lie nor a mistake.
Sure - perhaps Vlad can tell us if he accepts the NT accounts as myth, therefore?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #135 on: July 21, 2017, 09:58:41 AM »
Morning Prof,

Many thanks for finding the link.  Much appreciated.

I gather from your post that while you skimmed through most of the book to get a feel for its approach, Chapter 5 on the subject of the gospel miracles was the focus of your initial look.  Quite understandable considering your standpoint on matters of faith.  But you might find Chapters 2 on the  Date and Attestation of the Documents and Chapter 7 dealing specifically with the writings of Luke of interest.
I have delved into it a little more - but still not finding anything groundbreaking although some of the details are interesting.

On chapter 2 he takes as his starting point the consensus position: Matthew, c. 85-90; Mark, c. 65; Luke, c. 80-85; John, c. 90-100 - he then tries to argue for earlier dates as others (all of whom are christian apologists) have done. The reason why christians would want to date the gospels earlier is obvious but Bruce provides no compelling evidence and nor have others I've read.

The chapter on Luke is interesting, but doesn't really add anything to what I know - sure there are many references to historical figures who we know from corroboratory evidence existed. Some historical details are wrong. But none of this takes us any further into the historical accuracy of the main claims of christianity - namely the resurrection, miracles, virgin birth, son of god. No amount of correct, but uncontentious, historical evidence elsewhere adds one iota of evidence for the implausible claims. It is a bit like claiming that Harry Potter must be true because Kings Cross station actually exists.

And so onto the key issue - does Bruce actually claim evidence for the miracles as historical fact - he does not - he is clear that they are  a matter of faith, not of historical veracity. To quote again:

'The question whether the miracle-stories are true must ultimately be answered by a personal response of faith-not merely faith in the events as historical but faith in the Christ who performed them, faith which appropriates the power by which these mighty works were done.'

I was more interested in chapters 8-10 in which he looks at independent evidence - both archeological and written from Jewish and Roman sources. And he admits on both counts there is precious little. He also makes some bizarre claims to try to bolster his position. Perhaps the most notable being a possible reference to Jesus as Ben-Pantera ('Son of Pantera') which is usually suggested to be a reference to a Roman soldier named Pantheras. Bruce tries to claim that Pantera actually is parthenos, meaning virgin - there is no evidence for this whatsoever, beyond a desire on the part of a christian for it to be true.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #136 on: July 21, 2017, 09:59:40 AM »
Argument from personal incredulity?
So you are happy to accept as true that Icharus strapped on wings but came to a sticky end by flying too close to the sun.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #137 on: July 21, 2017, 10:03:25 AM »


Nope - I've asked you this question, since you support the NT accounts the burden of proof is yours and not mine.

A suggestion of lying is not the default position here which is what you have just suggested here.
Since you have done this grow some cohoes and present your reasoning
The existence and content of the accounts is plain. Where then is your evidence of conspiracy avoiding special pleading, argument from personal incredulity, ignoring the problem of induction etc.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #138 on: July 21, 2017, 10:05:47 AM »
Sure - perhaps Vlad can tell us if he accepts the NT accounts as myth, therefore?
I think the epistolary evidence eclude that.

Shaker

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #139 on: July 21, 2017, 10:08:12 AM »
A suggestion of lying is not the default position here which is what you have just suggested here.
Suggestion - you keep using that word; I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Since you have done this grow some cohoes and present your reasoning

He has - repeatedly.

And it's not the place for the most evasive poster on the forum to tell somebody else to grow some "cohoes" [sic].
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The existence and content of the accounts is plain.
Indeed.

Unfortunately what isn't plain is your methodology for taking said accounts to be true having eliminated the distinct possibility of error or deceit.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #140 on: July 21, 2017, 10:08:36 AM »
So you are happy to accept as true that Icharus strapped on wings but came to a sticky end by flying too close to the sun.
Did the Greeks even believe that was literally true.........or have you begun to see fundamentalists anywhere.

Shaker

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #141 on: July 21, 2017, 10:09:52 AM »
Did the Greeks even believe that was literally true.........or have you begun to see fundamentalists anywhere.
So by taking the NT accounts as literally true, you're outing yourself as a fundamentalist.

Nice work there Vlad ;)
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #142 on: July 21, 2017, 10:10:33 AM »
A suggestion of lying is not the default position here which is what you have just suggested here.
Since you have done this grow some cohoes and present your reasoning
The existence and content of the accounts is plain. Where then is your evidence of conspiracy avoiding special pleading, argument from personal incredulity, ignoring the problem of induction etc.

A suggestion of lying isn't the default position; however it remains your burden of proof to prove it is true.

Rhiannon

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #143 on: July 21, 2017, 10:13:16 AM »
I think the epistolary evidence eclude that.

How?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #144 on: July 21, 2017, 10:13:35 AM »
Your entire shtick seems to be the argument from credulity, Vlad - I want to think it's true, therefore it's true (even though I've offered no methodology whatsoever to rule out the distinct possibilities of lies or mistakes).
I've not even begun to bring my faith into it yet. Whereas you guys are arguing from your philosophies and beliefs and the evidence for that is you aren't yet offering a justification for lying in this case or evidence of a conspiracy.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #145 on: July 21, 2017, 10:16:28 AM »
How?
Evidence of a community of witnesses and people able to interlocute and interrogate them.

Shaker

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #146 on: July 21, 2017, 10:16:32 AM »
I've not even begun to bring my faith into it yet.
Of course not Vlad.

That's why you're not thumping the tub for the NT accounts as opposed to Mohammed's magical airborne equine.

Oh, wait ...

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Whereas you guys are arguing from your philosophies and beliefs and the evidence for that is you aren't yet offering a justification for lying in this case
You've had that many times - perhaps what looks like evasiveness is just you not paying attention to the thread very well?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #147 on: July 21, 2017, 10:18:50 AM »
I've not even begun to bring my faith into it yet. Whereas you guys are arguing from your philosophies and beliefs and the evidence for that is you aren't yet offering a justification for lying in this case or evidence of a conspiracy.

No, it's just that dead men - really dead men - don't come back to life. Let alone a dead man coming back to life for the illogical reason that you claim he did. It's not a 'philosophy' that says this story isn't true. It's that it's a myth like any other unless it can be proven otherwise.

Over to you.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #148 on: July 21, 2017, 10:23:21 AM »
Of course not Vlad.

That's why you're not thumping the tub for the NT accounts as opposed to Mohammed's magical airborne equine.

Oh, wait ...
You've had that many times - perhaps what looks like evasiveness is just you not paying attention to the thread very well?
All we e had is the sweeping ......people lie.
Ok what is the evidence that this is the case.

Mohammed's horse is not a critical article of faith for Moslems is it? Therefore bad analogy.

In terms of my faith and the resurrection. My experience is consistent with a resurrection yes.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #149 on: July 21, 2017, 10:26:25 AM »
No, it's just that dead men - really dead men - don't come back to life. Let alone a dead man coming back to life for the illogical reason that you claim he did. It's not a 'philosophy' that says this story isn't true. It's that it's a myth like any other unless it can be proven otherwise.

Over to you.
I don't understand this illogical reason bit. Can you elaborate?

Calling it a myth is not a default position you need to say why IT IS a myth.