Author Topic: Quoting Jesus  (Read 68778 times)

floo

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #150 on: July 21, 2017, 10:30:26 AM »
Argument from personal incredulity?

If something isn't credible it has to be challenged. One has a right to be sceptical unless, or until, it can be proved beyond all doubt it is factual.

Shaker

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #151 on: July 21, 2017, 10:30:38 AM »
All we e had is the sweeping ......people lie.
That people tell lies sometimes - is this something you deny?

Quote
Mohammed's horse is not a critical article of faith for Moslems is it? Therefore bad analogy.
Ah - so you're saying you believe a whole stack of implausible things (ignoring the possibility of lie or mistake in the meantime) because you think you have to.

Very interesting.

Quote
In terms of my faith and the resurrection. My experience is consistent with a resurrection yes.
Your experience of what? Having been pronounced clinically dead and then finding yourself alive again or what?
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Rhiannon

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #152 on: July 21, 2017, 10:31:07 AM »
I don't understand this illogical reason bit. Can you elaborate?

Calling it a myth is not a default position you need to say why IT IS a myth.

Ok, I'll be more accurate. Myth/untruth/lie/mistake like any other myth/lie etc.

Prove this dead man came back to life.

Shaker

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #153 on: July 21, 2017, 10:32:16 AM »
I don't understand this illogical reason bit. Can you elaborate?

Calling it a myth is not a default position you need to say why IT IS a myth.
You're very big on telling us what in your opinion the default position isn't, Vladdychops - so what in your opinion is?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #154 on: July 21, 2017, 10:34:27 AM »


In terms of my faith and the resurrection. My experience is consistent with a resurrection yes.

Which is fine. Your faith, your truth, it all feels very real. I've no doubt at all that you *feel* that the resurrection happened and that you *feel* that it happened to redeem your sinfulness. You experience it all as real.

But your feelings and experiences aren't proof.


floo

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #155 on: July 21, 2017, 10:38:25 AM »
Which is fine. Your faith, your truth, it all feels very real. I've no doubt at all that you *feel* that the resurrection happened and that you *feel* that it happened to redeem your sinfulness. You experience it all as real.

But your feelings and experiences aren't proof.

Feelings and experiences are definitely not proof of anything more than one's brain activity where faith is concerned, imo.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #156 on: July 21, 2017, 11:30:25 AM »
I have delved into it a little more - but still not finding anything groundbreaking although some of the details are interesting.

On chapter 2 he takes as his starting point the consensus position: Matthew, c. 85-90; Mark, c. 65; Luke, c. 80-85; John, c. 90-100 - he then tries to argue for earlier dates as others (all of whom are christian apologists) have done. The reason why christians would want to date the gospels earlier is obvious but Bruce provides no compelling evidence and nor have others I've read.

The chapter on Luke is interesting, but doesn't really add anything to what I know - sure there are many references to historical figures who we know from corroboratory evidence existed. Some historical details are wrong. But none of this takes us any further into the historical accuracy of the main claims of christianity - namely the resurrection, miracles, virgin birth, son of god. No amount of correct, but uncontentious, historical evidence elsewhere adds one iota of evidence for the implausible claims. It is a bit like claiming that Harry Potter must be true because Kings Cross station actually exists.

And so onto the key issue - does Bruce actually claim evidence for the miracles as historical fact - he does not - he is clear that they are  a matter of faith, not of historical veracity. To quote again:

'The question whether the miracle-stories are true must ultimately be answered by a personal response of faith-not merely faith in the events as historical but faith in the Christ who performed them, faith which appropriates the power by which these mighty works were done.'

I was more interested in chapters 8-10 in which he looks at independent evidence - both archeological and written from Jewish and Roman sources. And he admits on both counts there is precious little. He also makes some bizarre claims to try to bolster his position. Perhaps the most notable being a possible reference to Jesus as Ben-Pantera ('Son of Pantera') which is usually suggested to be a reference to a Roman soldier named Pantheras. Bruce tries to claim that Pantera actually is parthenos, meaning virgin - there is no evidence for this whatsoever, beyond a desire on the part of a christian for it to be true.
To summarise, my reading of this document from Bruce (which I fully admit hasn't been every word on every page) hasn't changed my view at all, which may be summarised as follows:

I think there is limited, but sufficient evidence to suggest that a person called Jesus existed in 1stC Palestine. That he was likely a preacher and teacher and gained a small number of committed followers. That his activities became a concern to the authorities, both Jewish and Roman and that he was executed. That his followers scattered and gained support for his views over the following decades, critically not in Palestine, but elsewhere.

The reason why I accept this despite there being limited evidence (and certainly very limited independent corroboration, beyond that off his followers) is because there is nothing implausible about any of those claims, so the threshold of evidence is relatively low.

There is absolutely nothing that leads me to belief that any of the miraculous claims are historically true (i.e. they actually happened) - there is simply no evidence for any of them and the claims are implausible, if not impossible and therefore require exceptional levels of evidence.

Okram's razor also applies as there are naturalistic and plausible explanations for all the miraculous claims and given that those claims are from followers the suggestion of exaggeration and distortion of the actual truth to provide a narrative to fit effectively a political agenda seems plausible too.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 03:19:37 PM by ProfessorDavey »

wigginhall

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #157 on: July 21, 2017, 12:08:11 PM »
I think that Prof. D.'s post (163) pretty much sums up the views of many historians.   As he says, there is enough evidence to support the existence of a Jewish preacher, who was executed, and had followers.   It's not luxuriant evidence, but then there often isn't in the ancient world.   As to miracles, historians tend to avoid, as they do not deal with supernatural stuff.   

Quite often, you will see a conflation between the two - that is, a historical Jesus, and a miracle-wielding Jesus - which just gets in the way of historical analysis.
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floo

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #158 on: July 21, 2017, 12:17:15 PM »
I think that Prof. D.'s post (163) pretty much sums up the views of many historians.   As he says, there is enough evidence to support the existence of a Jewish preacher, who was executed, and had followers.   It's not luxuriant evidence, but then there often isn't in the ancient world.   As to miracles, historians tend to avoid, as they do not deal with supernatural stuff.   

Quite often, you will see a conflation between the two - that is, a historical Jesus, and a miracle-wielding Jesus - which just gets in the way of historical analysis.

Good post.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #159 on: July 21, 2017, 12:46:20 PM »
Wiggs,

Quote
I think that Prof. D.'s post (163) pretty much sums up the views of many historians.   As he says, there is enough evidence to support the existence of a Jewish preacher, who was executed, and had followers.   It's not luxuriant evidence, but then there often isn't in the ancient world.   As to miracles, historians tend to avoid, as they do not deal with supernatural stuff.   

Quite often, you will see a conflation between the two - that is, a historical Jesus, and a miracle-wielding Jesus - which just gets in the way of historical analysis.

Quite – it's frustrating that "Jesus the man" and "Jesus the man-god" are so often used interchangeably by those who would elide the two. The former doesn't seem particularly controversial to me - an itinerant preacher/mystic/street conjuror who reportedly said some interesting and worthwhile things isn't improbable enough to be overly doubtful about. By contrast, the man-god claim requires huge additional assumptions to be accepted a priori.

As for "the Gospels have been thoroughly investigated" used as support for miracle stories, that seems to me to miss the point entirely. That the stories come from a time when credence was given to any number of supposed miracle stories so there'd be no lying necessary for these narratives to catch the wind anyway doesn't help much, but the killer argument is that the "dead for a bit then alive again" version was something no-one then could have known to be true. There just wasn't the technology, the forensic procedures, the anything necessary to establish the claim to anything like even the basic standards of evidence we'd insist on now. It's quite possible that whatever witnesses there were to an event were utterly sincere about what they thought they saw, but that tells you nothing about whether they were right to be so. 

Tell us "I think it's true because that's my faith" if you like, but any claim of historicity for miracle stories seems to me to be doomed necessarily before it's even got its trousers off. 
   
« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 01:04:18 PM by bluehillside »
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #160 on: July 21, 2017, 01:15:22 PM »
Evidence of a community of witnesses
What community of witnesses?

Do you mean the purported 500? In which case we have no corroboration of their existence let alone what they think they witnessed.
 
and people able to interlocute and interrogate them.
How - there is no evidence that anyone who claimed to have witnessed the resurrection or any of the other purported miracles was interrogated about what they claim to have seen.

What we do know is that the thousands claimed to be witnesses of the miracles and resurrection were not sufficiently moved by what they say to follow Jesus - we know this because Christianity did not get a foothold in the geographical area where the claimed events are believed to have taken place (and where the claimed witnesses presumably lived).
« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 01:21:57 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #161 on: July 21, 2017, 01:22:56 PM »
Which is fine. Your faith, your truth, it all feels very real. I've no doubt at all that you *feel* that the resurrection happened and that you *feel* that it happened to redeem your sinfulness. You experience it all as real.

But your feelings and experiences aren't proof.
I only said my experience of Jesus is consistent with a resurrection in that it was not one of inflated hero worship or memorial for a good but very dead man but a real encounter with a risen Lord

Owlswing

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #162 on: July 21, 2017, 01:24:47 PM »

Floo being absurd again. I should have known better.

Anyway, my point was that of course you don't believe the gospel accounts are accurate because you don't believe in the Holy Spirit. Don't get your knickers in a twist, dear!


Do you have a degree in being patronising when unable to provide an intelligent answer?
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #163 on: July 21, 2017, 01:28:56 PM »
I only said my experience of Jesus is consistent with a resurrection in that it was not one of inflated hero worship or memorial for a good but very dead man but a real encounter with a risen Lord
So you believe - that's hardly news, but completely irrelevant to the issue of whether what you believe happened actually happened.

Even F F Bruce is honest enough to accept that belief in the resurrection and other purported miracles is a matter of faith and of faith alone, and sits entirely outside the issue of historical validity of the claims - i.e. whether they actually happened, rather than whether some people belief they happened.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #164 on: July 21, 2017, 01:30:39 PM »
What community of witnesses?

Do you mean the purported 500? In which case we have no corroboration of their existence let alone what they think they witnessed.
 How - there is no evidence that anyone who claimed to have witnessed the resurrection or any of the other purported miracles was interrogated about what they claim to have seen.

What we do know is that the thousands claimed to be witnesses of the miracles and resurrection were not sufficiently moved by what they say to follow Jesus - we know this because Christianity did not get a foothold in the geographical area where the claimed events are believed to have taken place (and where the claimed witnesses presumably lived).
Those described as witnesses in the epistles.
Re corroboration, surprisingly little in ancient history I'm afraid.
Are you saying they were lying or that they didn't exist......or that they didn't exist and were lying as well?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #165 on: July 21, 2017, 01:35:02 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
I only said my belief about my experience of Jesus is consistent with a resurrection in that it was not one of inflated hero worship or memorial for a good but very dead man but a real encounter with a risen Lord

Corrected it for you. Your "experience" and the narrative you reach for to explain it are not necessarily the same thing.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #166 on: July 21, 2017, 01:36:15 PM »
Wiggs,

Quite – it's frustrating that "Jesus the man" and "Jesus the man-god" are so often used interchangeably by those who would elide the two. The former doesn't seem particularly controversial to me - an itinerant preacher/mystic/street conjuror who reportedly said some interesting and worthwhile things isn't improbable enough to be overly doubtful about. By contrast, the man-god claim requires huge additional assumptions to be accepted a priori.

As for "the Gospels have been thoroughly investigated" used as support for miracle stories, that seems to me to miss the point entirely. That the stories come from a time when credence was given to any number of supposed miracle stories so there'd be no lying necessary for these narratives to catch the wind anyway doesn't help much, but the killer argument is that the "dead for a bit then alive again" version was something no-one then could have known to be true. There just wasn't the technology, the forensic procedures, the anything necessary to establish the claim to anything like even the basic standards of evidence we'd insist on now. It's quite possible that whatever witnesses there were to an event were utterly sincere about what they thought they saw, but that tells you nothing about whether they were right to be so. 

Tell us "I think it's true because that's my faith" if you like, but any claim of historicity for miracle stories seems to me to be doomed necessarily before it's even got its trousers off. 
   
What do you mean by street conjuror? Where is your evidence that Jesus was one bearing in mind the attitude of the apostles towards Simon Magus and his Ilk.

Rhiannon

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #167 on: July 21, 2017, 01:40:51 PM »
Vlad, why does it matter to you to 'prove' it? Isn't your faith enough for you?

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #168 on: July 21, 2017, 01:42:19 PM »
Those described as witnesses in the epistles.
Names please

Re corroboration, surprisingly little in ancient history I'm afraid.
Simply stating that stuff is old and therefore we cannot get corroboration doesn't mean that evidence is strengthened - it isn't. Sure we understand the challenge of corroboration from centuries ago, which is one of the reasons why the evidence is exceptionally weak.

Are you saying they were lying or that they didn't exist......or that they didn't exist and were lying as well?
Who knows - we have no meaningful evidence at all - and certainly nothing to confirm what those witnesses (if they actually existed) claim to have seen.

If I told you that I'd just shot 18 holes in one in a round of golf and that 500 witnesses witnessed it, would you simply accept that it must be true then. Nope because it is the same person making both eh extraordinary claim and also making the claim of their being witnesses. You'd be astonishingly until you had found out who those witnesses were, verified that they were actually there and finally checked what they claimed to have seen.

Simply making a claim that something extraordinary happened and then also making a claim that 500 people saw it, is completely irrelevant.

You are aware of Kim Jong Il's famous round of golf aren't you - and the witnesses to it.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #169 on: July 21, 2017, 01:51:54 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
What do you mean by street conjuror? Where is your evidence that Jesus was one bearing in mind the attitude of the apostles towards Simon Magus and his Ilk.

You do this a lot. An argument is posted that (presumably) you read, and you then pick one tiny part from it to query while ignoring entirely the thrust of the point. Presumably you do it in the hope that the discussion will then veer away from the substantive issue that doesn't suit you and toward a trivial one that does.

What does this say about you do you think, and indeed about your confidence in your position?

What I said was: "The former doesn't seem particularly controversial to me - an itinerant preacher/mystic/street conjuror who reportedly said some interesting and worthwhile things isn't improbable enough to be overly doubtful about". Whether he was a combination of these naturalistic behaviours or of different ones doesn't matter at all for the point to stand, namely that claiming any such things wouldn't be particularly controversial.

So, did you have anything to say to the argument - namely that people at that time could not have known whether the claimed miracle actually happened?

   
« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 01:55:50 PM by bluehillside »
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #170 on: July 21, 2017, 01:54:06 PM »
Rhi,

Quote
Vlad, why does it matter to you to 'prove' it? Isn't your faith enough for you?

Vladidation.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #171 on: July 21, 2017, 01:54:23 PM »
Quite – it's frustrating that "Jesus the man" and "Jesus the man-god" are so often used interchangeably by those who would elide the two.
I agree - and there is a frustrating approach from some Christian apologists suggesting that if you believe the "Jesus the man" bit you must necessarily accept "Jesus the man-god", and the flip side being that if you reject "Jesus the man-god" you must necessarily reject "Jesus the man".

It is a perfectly legitimate view to accept, on the balance of probabilities that "Jesus the man" existed, was a preacher and was executed, while totally rejecting the fanciful "Jesus the man-god" claims.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 01:59:14 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #172 on: July 21, 2017, 02:02:08 PM »
I agree - and there is a frustrating approach from some Christian apologists suggesting that if you believe the "Jesus the man" bit you must necessarily accept "Jesus the man-god", and the flip side being that if you reject "Jesus the man-god" you must necessarily reject "Jesus the man".

It is a perfectly legitimate view to accept, on the balance of probabilities that "Jesus the man" existed, was a preacher and was executed, while totally rejecting the fanciful "Jesus the man-god" claims.

Note that flipside you cover is also used by mythicists and indeed seems to be Owlswing's approach.

DaveM

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #173 on: July 21, 2017, 02:05:06 PM »
I have delved into it a little more - but still not finding anything groundbreaking although some of the details are interesting..........

And so onto the key issue - does Bruce actually claim evidence for the miracles as historical fact - he does not - he is clear that they are  a matter of faith, not of historical veracity. To quote again:

'The question whether the miracle-stories are true must ultimately be answered by a personal response of faith-not merely faith in the events as historical but faith in the Christ who performed them, faith which appropriates the power by which these mighty works were done.'

I was more interested in chapters 8-10 in which he looks at independent evidence............
Well as I said earlier I was under no illusions that you would experience any epiphany of thinking from looking at his writings.  But thank you that you were prepared to put the time and effort into doing so and to do so with a more objective and open mindset than would have been the case for many others.  I do appreciate that.

Incidentally on the issue of the claimed miracles, I was first pointed in the direction of FF Bruce's writings by a man who had been involved in a horrific incident in the Western Desert during WW2.  He received severe third degree burns and was considered a hopeless case by the army doctors.  Yet he made a remarkable recovery (and I have deliberately avoided using the phrase miraculous recovery).  But perhaps a subject for some more specific future thread on this topic when (as it surely will) it once again comes under discussion.  I do not intend being the cause of derailing this thread completely.

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Quoting Jesus
« Reply #174 on: July 21, 2017, 02:09:47 PM »
There is no historic evidence of a historic conspiracy.
The ressurection fits. Given research into conspiracies.


Well, given that Paul, whom you have spoken of as a reliable witness and representative of the central doctrines of Christianity, said that "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, and given that you have spoken of the supposed truth of a "bodily resurrection" - then I'd say that the supposed resurrection does anything but fit.

Also, it is quite obvious to anyone who has taken the trouble to read the gospels and the letters of Paul, that Paul's take on Jesus is extremely personal, and has very little to do with what Jesus is supposed to have taught except in a very general sense. This is hardly a new idea, but given the way you keep storming on, it would appear that it has not occurred to you.
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